A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

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  • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

    Originally posted by emily blake View Post
    I don't understand what you're trying to say, or what you're saying, or what you did say, or whatever wording you would like me to use so that you will not be insulted.

    You say you don't identify as feminist, but you are insulted if someone claims you are not actually a feminist. I don't understand this, so I asked if you could clarify. But that also is insulting to you, I think. I don't know. I'm sure what I've just said is also somehow insulting. So I'm sorry for insulting you once again.
    I prefer not to barcode myself with any -ism. I prefer to allow myself the freedom to evolve as an individual. Not that you're really interested, because I don't believe you truly are, but, for the record, I don't brand myself a "liberal" either though I hold many "liberal" views as well. My ex-husband tried to sell me on branding myself a "humanist," because that's what he called himself (yet, in his words and actions he was more a misanthrope).

    Refusing to label myself, or others, for that matter, is simply who I am.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

      Okay, that makes more sense than the other statements. So for you, it's not really about other women who identify as feminists. It's about avoiding identifying yourself as anything specific.

      And I do care about the answer, or I wouldn't have asked the question.
      Chicks Who Script podcast

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      • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

        Originally posted by emily blake View Post
        Okay, that makes more sense than the other statements. So for you, it's not really about other women who identify as feminists. It's about avoiding identifying yourself as anything specific.

        And I do care about the answer, or I wouldn't have asked the question.
        Forgive me if I doubt your sincerity. But I do. I think I made the same statement in the post to castilleja32 I referred you to, above:

        I don't feel the need to bear a label or announce "I support" feminism. For the
        same reason I don't feel the need to announce I'm a woman, or announce I'm a
        member of the Democratic Party, or announce whether or not I practice this or
        that religion. Or announce I'm "not afraid" of this or that. Engage me in
        conversation and I bet you can figure out where I stand on all of those topics,
        rather quickly.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

        Comment


        • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

          But you did feel the need to announce that you are NOT a feminist, which is why I was perplexed, because you always seemed to have such passion for feminist issues. The reasons you gave didn't totally make sense to me. A lot of times when people argue, it's a misunderstanding, so I thought if I could understand you, perhaps we could reach an agreement.

          But I won't ask you anymore questions. Good luck to you in the future.
          Chicks Who Script podcast

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          • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

            The problem some people have with feminists is that everything is loaded. Marvel refuses to make a female lead movie. Not Marvel hasn't made a female lead movie.

            I've only dated white women. If someone said Bill refuses to date minorities, that would be dumb. And untrue. And that's why I get women who don't want to be lumped in with feminists.

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            • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

              Originally posted by emily blake View Post
              But you did feel the need to announce that you are NOT a feminist, which is why I was perplexed, because you always seemed to have such passion for feminist issues. The reasons you gave didn't totally make sense to me. A lot of times when people argue, it's a misunderstanding, so I thought if I could understand you, perhaps we could reach an agreement.

              But I won't ask you anymore questions. Good luck to you in the future.
              I did not "announce" my point of view out of context. I was responding to something Nic posted (see my post #145) in an attempt to communicate.

              I've put a lot of thought into my position. I've done research on this topic, constinuously. If anyone wants me to expand on why I don't identify with the goals and platform of what is now called "third wave feminism," which identifies itself as separate from the original women's movement and is often critical of it, I'd be happy to expand on it and provide sources.

              If you want to end communication between you and I, fine. Although I find it odd I'm not surpised.
              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

              Comment


              • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                Heavens to Mergatroyd! I can certainly understand Emily's confusion.

                The word "feminist" has a simple definition - one who believes in equal rights for, and equal treatment of women. You either are, or are not, a feminist. Period.

                Just because some people say or do stupid things in the name of feminism, or just because other people add additional negative labels or connotations to the word feminist in order to demean it, that does not have any bearing on whether one truly is, or is not, a feminist - and should not have any bearing on whether or not they would be willing to admit that they are a feminist.

                And it's not like someone who considers themselves a feminist goes around announcing it everywhere they go in their everyday lives, nor do they have to join a club, or march in the streets - they can just be one, and act accordingly. I just naively assume everyone who seems mentally stable is a feminist.
                "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

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                • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                  Originally posted by cshel View Post
                  The word "feminist" has a simple definition - one who believes in equal rights for, and equal treatment of women. You either are, or are not, a feminist. Period.
                  I believe in equal rights for, and equal treatment of women.

                  I believe the word "feminism" means whatever someone says it means, and then the next day revises what s/he said after realizing what s/he said wasn't quite what s/he meant to say, or it wasn't understood the way s/he intended it to be.*

                  I also believe it is good that, in the pantheon of words in the English language, we have finally settled on one as having a meaning that's immutable.

                  I also believe it is good that, apparently, as an adjunct to the above, we have finally settled on one, immutable meaning for the word "equal".

                  And finally, I believe it is good that this has been made clear, finally, by someone with a location listed as "My liberal limousine", because that suggests (to me, anyway) that perhaps there is now also a universally accepted meaning of the word "liberal". If only that had happened sooner; could have save ol' Ted Kennedy a lot of time and effort.

                  ___________

                  * - The same is true as to many, many, many words that are used in "political" discourse. Such as the word "support", which the next day may be revised to mean "support in principle".

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                  • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                    Originally posted by cshel View Post
                    Heavens to Mergatroyd! I can certainly understand Emily's confusion.

                    The word "feminist" has a simple definition - one who believes in equal rights for, and equal treatment of women. You either are, or are not, a feminist. Period.

                    Just because some people say or do stupid things in the name of feminism, or just because other people add additional negative labels or connotations to the word feminist in order to demean it, that does not have any bearing on whether one truly is, or is not, a feminist - and should not have any bearing on whether or not they would be willing to admit that they are a feminist.

                    And it's not like someone who considers themselves a feminist goes around announcing it everywhere they go in their everyday lives, nor do they have to join a club, or march in the streets - they can just be one, and act accordingly. I just naively assume everyone who seems mentally stable is a feminist.
                    Indeed. People only seem to have that megaphone need to say they're NOT feminists. And rarely do they fail to use the opportunity to demean, marginalize, and perpetuate negative stereotypes about feminists and women.

                    I can't recall ever reading/hearing someone say, "Yes, I recognize those who made sacrifices so I could vote, have a job, demand equal pay, control my own body, allow my girl to play on a soccer team at school...but please do not mistake me for someone like that. Visionary, creative, having a sense of justice and conviction...self respect -- NOPE! Not me."

                    Now some don't fully understand what they're saying...somehow. Others are fearful, highly approval-seeking, and still others have a personal, selfish interest in perpetuating the stereotypes.

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                    • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                      Originally posted by cshel View Post
                      ... I just naively assume everyone who seems mentally stable is a feminist.
                      Wow. Now we can add mental stability to the list of disses. Ironically, I'm not in the minority according to this poll:



                      Only one-fifth of Americans identify as feminists, according to a new HuffPost/YouGov poll. But the vast majority fit the basic definition of the word. According to the survey, just 20 percent of Americans -- including 23 percent of women and 16 percent of men -- consider themselves feminists. Another 8 percent consider themselves anti-feminists, while 63 percent said they are neither.... But asked if they believe that "men and women should be social, political, and economic equals," 82 percent of the survey respondents said they did, and just 9 percent said they did not.

                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3094917.html
                      Hmm. Why is this contradiction so pervasive? Well, I have a theory on the reasons which I've seen echoed in others' writings (you can google that for yourself).

                      Third wave feminism has redefined the dictionary definition of "feminisim." Their voices so loudly pervade the net's social sites and blogs, it has established its definition front of mind. Add to this, there are so many splinter groups within the third wave, there is no clear message of what feminism is any more.

                      Some factions insist men cannot call themselves feminists.

                      Others believe early leaders like Betty Friedan et al were "wrong" to petition a "patriarchal government" for new law and, as a result, diminish (and some dismiss) the current value of those laws.

                      Other factions state their platform stands firmly on the belief that the US has a growing "rape culture" and they circulate misinformation which, imo, generates useless, antiproductive anger and fear. Meanwhile, they ignore that, in reality, incidents of rape and sexual violence have been steadily dropping since 1995: See figure 1: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf

                      If someone, like me, brings these statistics to their attention, I'm demonized (as I was on another site's discussion).

                      Third wave feminism appears to be an outgrowth of the Grrrll Power movement of the 90s that, at least in one blog I read awhile back, prided itself on targeting teenage girls who were anxious about transitioning to adulthood through inviting them to various events (I'll look for the link later and post it here if I can find it -- the rhetoric is bizarre to put it mildly).

                      From what I've read of third-wavers, they have made the waters of feminism so murky and hard to navigate, even women who were on the front lines in the 60s, diehard activists, prefer to distance themselves from third wavers.

                      Do yourself a favor, instead of naively assuming things and questioning other women's mental health, conduct your own research and educate yourself.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                      Comment


                      • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                        This is becoming exhausting. Feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. Equality.
                        Equality.
                        Equality.

                        If a majority of Americans don't know what the word actually means, that explains why we have inequality. And why we need feminists.

                        I'm a feminist.
                        Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

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                        • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                          Originally posted by NoirDigits View Post
                          This is becoming exhausting. Feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. Equality.
                          Equality.
                          Equality.

                          If a majority of Americans don't know what the word actually means, that explains why we have inequality. And why we need feminists.

                          I'm a feminist.
                          This.

                          I'm a feminist.

                          My website:www.marjorykaptanoglu.com

                          Comment


                          • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                            Originally posted by NoirDigits View Post
                            This is becoming exhausting. Feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. Equality.
                            Equality.
                            Equality.

                            If a majority of Americans don't know what the word actually means, that explains why we have inequality. And why we need feminists.

                            I'm a feminist.
                            If people's thoughts, beliefs, and actions were limited to the breadth of their vocabularies, the world would be the lesser for it.

                            And if limited to the breadth of their in-common vocabularies... Well, some people think "STOP" signs mean to simply slow down.

                            Fortunately, none of those is the case.

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                            • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                              I like feminists. Especially if they got big boobies.

                              Comment


                              • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                                And I'm assuming SC's last post is supposed to be ironic?

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