An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

    I had that exact same thing happen, down to the scores. My takeaway from it is that I'm not great at incorporating notes.

    Originally posted by purplenurple View Post
    I agree with you MGWriter. I did blacklist a while back and not knowing who was downloading my script was strange to me. At first I found it exciting, then after a while I was frustrated. No one gave me a comment or contacted me. I had several downloads - some days none and then some days 2 or 3. I had no idea if it was a fifth rate wannabe producer or an assistant of a legit agent. I had downloads even before it was critiqued by the reader which surprised me. Then when it was critiqued and given a score (a 6 - I know I know that's low) I thought I was dead in the water but I kept getting reads BUT FROM WHO? Now for the record I didn't get an extreme amount of downloads - I think it was in the range of 12 or 13 total for the time I kept it up.

    Now here's the funny part. Really. I took the advice of the reader which had some good points although the feedback was filled with compliments so I thought "6" was a little low. But that's not the funny part. The funny part is I revamped the script because the advice felt about right then I put it back on BL and I got a lower score! A 4?!!! Frankly I thought the script was so much better and was prepared for a big big bump up to at least a 7. It knocked me sideways when I went down to a 4. I know it was a different reader but the script was better. I felt it clicked thanks to the first reader's advice. I don't remember the second reader's advice because I almost blacked out from the sheer shock In general he/she didn't like it. In that case I think I got roughly 2 or 3 downloads (why would anyone download such a low grade I don't know) before I took it off out of embarrassment and the feeling I was contaminating the concept by keeping it up.

    So that's 2 experiences from the same script. Oddly enough, I'd do it again if there was some transparency with who downloads the scripts. I've become so jaded that I have a hard time believing that it was anyone with even an ounce of clout or even the assistant to the assistant of someone that has clout but you never know unless there is transparency.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

      Originally posted by figment
      Why is this question never answered?

      Originally Posted by figment http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...s/viewpost.gif
      Why doesn't the hosting month begin when the review comes in?

      The BL knows that having reviews and scores available is what drives pro views and downloads, yet continues to take weeks of hosting money with no reviews or scores available, thereby causing writers to have to purchase more months of hosting. For NO reason.
      I think this question is never answered because it would force Franklin to acknowledge that the hosting fee is more about generating a recurring source of revenue than providing exposure to writers.

      I can understand the purpose of it, which is why I didn't ask about it in my original post. All businesses need a recurring source of income to make their revenues more predictable. It's essentially a subscription fee.

      Think about it like a gym membership -- if you don't want to sign up for a year-long membership, preferring not to have a commitment -- many gyms will force you to pay a month-to-month fee that covers any visits you decide to take during the month.

      The BL's monthly $25 fee is essentially meant to cover the possibility that a Pro may download your script during the course of the month, even before the eval comes in. Now, we all know that is a pretty remote possibility -- I mean, if you think about it, 24.8% of people is a pretty small number -- but the fact is -- it's still a possibility.

      But Franklin, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

        i sure hope the police catch the guy who's been holding a gun to the head of all these poor writers who've been using the Black List site. he sounds dangerous

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

          Sure Joebanks. In away you are completely right however, when it comes to parting of money - putting aside talent for a second - we have a right to figure things out. You know how many of these things are out there that supposedly can help your script get across tables? A lot. I've tried a few of them. And in trying a few of them I can tell you basically what-is-what with the ones I've tried. Yes, if I wrote a better, stronger script maybe I'd report wonderful experiences or be too busy hanging with A-listers to even go on the site, but I think some of us are circling our wagons because there is some concerns like who is reading the script? Granted my experiences were a year or two ago but I saw the topic and thought I'd give my own experience. For better or for worse I went back into the BL well twice. Yup, no one put a gun to my head. I only chimed in because I believe some of the questions were legitimate and the head honcho got mad.

          When it comes to these type of things many of the questions and posts are repetitive. We all want the magic formula to success, but a lot of these services should be questioned somewhat. Too many times we focus on the negativity or we let our biasness to our "masterpiece" get in the way of objectivity, but the truth is very few success stories make it into a post and when they do there is little way to fact check because no one says names/figures/agencies. I get why it isn't posted but it doesn't stop me from wanting to know

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

            Franklin has been running the Black List hosting site for over three years now. it's obvious (to me) that: (1) nothing he can ever say at this point will satisfy the malingerers who continue to believe that the site is a "scam" or whatever else they want to call it; and (2) there are no changes, however radical, he could make to the site that would satisfy those same complainers that it wasn't a "scam" anymore.

            you don't want to use it, for whatever reason, don't use it. there is literally not a single person in Hollywood who regrets having too few scripts to read

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

              What I've noticed is whether one calls it a scam or another calls it a success it won't stop others from using the service. Again everyone wants something positive to happen.

              I only jumped in to share my experience because Franklin left in a huff and I knew some people would come out of the woodwork to defend his stance as if to curry favor. If much of this post was people insisting they have the next best script that BL foolishly overlooked or scored low then I'd say you have every right to defend Franklin's exiting. Some people really are delusional or at least wildly overconfident. Anyone who has read another person's brilliant "baby" has felt that awkward moment in that they're reading a turd. But what is bantered about here in the more recent entries is trying to figure out if it is, well, semi-rigged.

              Here's a completely different topic but has the same ending... several years ago I went to a pitch festival in LA. I got on a plane and went across country with two scripts under my arm and what I thought were air tight pitches. I paid for airfare. hotel and the pitches. I learned a lot about myself in that I was not ready to pitch. That and the function itself was bizarre. I pitched to an "exec" ( a good looking 25 year old woman) who was getting a massage as I pitched my passion project Not kidding. They had a masseuse for the pros there and twice I sat across the table from someone getting a massage in the 2 days I was there. The look of satisfaction on their faces sadly wasn't coming from my pitch.

              While waiting in line for my scheduled pitch I met a few cool people who as we're apt to do when together - wanted to talk about their script. I read one and it was in my opinion bad. What I can remember mostly was grammatical errors in every sentence. I lied of course and said it was really good. This lie cost me because for the rest of the weekend he wanted to talk on and on about the wonder of his script so I get that being angry at BL after a poor grade is somewhat fruitless. And to add insult to injury the guy whose script I read and lied was good was surly when my script became optioned **** If you guessed free one year option that led to nothing you'd be right****. Again human nature sucks.

              Through trial and error I wouldn't do some of the services I've done again. The pitch festival was a massive waste of money. Many of the execs weren't even an assistant to the assistant creative people or interns. In regards to BL, I found it odd I never knew who downloaded my script and that when I tackled the short comings found by the first reader I was given a much lower grade by another reader. In reading other people's experiences I'm not alone in being perplexed. I have seen posts with people scoring 8s and 9s and nothing Earth shattering happening either. Just my 2 cents.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                I'm on day 21 waiting for a review. Yea, maybe I'll get thrown a bone in a couple days and get some money back or something like that. But the reason I ordered two evaluations is that perhaps by some small miracle I could get one eval earlier than the other, to no avail. It's frustrating for a writer who wants feedback and just wants to write and make the script better. Perhaps there's a need to get more skilled evaluators and cut down the wait time. This will really give me pause to use this service again and if a lot of people think the way that I do then I don't think the site will grow, it will slowly decline.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                  Originally posted by figment
                  Except the majority of the people in THIS thread aren't calling it a scam. As current or past users of the BL they are asking logical questions that should have logical answers.

                  Why can't hosting begin when the evaluation/scores are given? There is no logical answer to the fact that writers have to pay for three weeks of hosting time before getting their scores on a site specifically designed to utilize scores for the purpose of getting downloads.

                  Writers are paying for nothing, then having to pony up an extra month of hosting money just to get "one month."

                  The only answer is greed. Not a scam. Greed. I prefer to think it is simple greed, because the only other way to think about that is that the BL just thinks writers are stupid.

                  There is no logical answer why writers can't know who (creative exec, assistant, prodco, pro writer) is downloading their script.

                  It's telling in this thread that the BL answered mgwriter's more off the wall suggestions and shut him down, but did not answer any of the very logical questions that have haunted the BL site from the beginning.

                  There you go. Now I'm done.
                  Figment is right. Like almost all of these types of services, it's probably not fair to call it an outright scam but it is a money-grab. There's nothing wrong with people trying to make money -- everyone, or at least everyone I know -- has to do it. Just know what it is before you jump in. The best analogy I can think of for services like these - and most screenwriting contests and pitch fests, etc..-- is that it's like the lottery. There's always ONE winner that they trump up and tout like, See! It works! But how did this person win? Well... luck. And of course SOMEONE has to win on at least a semi-regular basis because that's what keeps the people buying the tickets and the money flowing in. That's their marketing. And it's no different in the world of the screenwriting cottage industry because it's always going to come down to who reads your script and their own particular background and biases. But the model is the same: tout winners to show legitimacy and get aspirants to buy en masse.

                  And by the way Franklin Leonard is an EXCELLENT businessman and CEO because he has an answer for everything

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                    Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
                    Figment is right. Like almost all of these types of services, it's probably not fair to call it an outright scam but it is a money-grab. There's nothing wrong with people trying to make money -- everyone, or at least everyone I know -- has to do it. Just know what it is before you jump in. The best analogy I can think of for services like these - and most screenwriting contests and pitch fests, etc..-- is that it's like the lottery. There's always ONE winner that they trump up and tout like, See! It works! But how did this person win? Well... luck. And of course SOMEONE has to win on at least a semi-regular basis because that's what keeps the people buying the tickets and the money flowing in. That's their marketing. And it's no different in the world of the screenwriting cottage industry because it's always going to come down to who reads your script and their own particular background and biases. But the model is the same: tout winners to show legitimacy and get aspirants to buy en masse.

                    And by the way Franklin Leonard is an EXCELLENT businessman and CEO because he has an answer for everything
                    As I have said many, many times, the reason we don't allow writers to "begin the clock" when their script evaluation is delivered is simplicity of pay structure. It's one month of hosting for $25 and one evaluation for $50 no matter how you want to combine your bundle. Starting the clock when an evaluation comes in creates all kinds of bizarre behavioral incentives including a rational desire to keep pulling your script that may actually attract attention based on previous evaluations to wait for another "new" evaluation to come in.

                    If it's really giving you pause, feel free to think of the first evaluation purchase as costing $75 and the second month as being your first month. Problem solved. Another solution, don't use the site.

                    As for the reason we don't give a vague identity of the person downloading your script, it's because many folks wear a number of different hats when they use the site. Some actors are looking for material to direct or produce. Some managers or their assistants may be looking for clients to represent or material for their directors. The information that an actor or manager or manager's assistant downloaded their script wouldn't help writers in any substantive way.

                    Lastly, it's odd to me that folks are simultaneously lambasting us for not providing enough information about the success stories and accusing us of touting winners to show legitimacy and get aspirants to buy en masse. I tend not to aggressively advertise success stories for the same reason that financial services firms aren't legally able to use customer testimonials: it tends to be unrepresentative of the customer base as a whole.

                    The fact of the matter is that no one HAS to win on the Black List website. Members aren't required to read scripts, sign the writers they read, option their scripts or make them. Ditto our partnerships, all of which give our partners the option to choose no one if we don't deliver a writer who meets their need (the Nicholl has the same option each year with their fellowships.)

                    Within the context of the Black List website, folks find success because their scripts are strong, and we've created an infrastructure whereby people who can do something we them can find them easily.
                    Last edited by FranklinLeonard; 04-11-2016, 10:19 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                      Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post

                      I think we're done here. You've accused me of being a crack dealer. You ignore evidence that directly contradicts your point and then continue trying to stitch together an argument composed of the most extreme of outliers.
                      .


                      Hey, you're back!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                        After reading figment's post which were on target I can say I'm done. Couldn't say it any better.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                          Originally posted by purplenurple View Post
                          Hey, you're back!
                          Yes, I was "done" with mgwriter's line of inquiry in this thread, for reasons that I explicated in that post.

                          I have also now addressed both the questions of the pay structure and why we don't include information about the identity of those who have downloaded the scripts.

                          Does anyone have any other questions? Things they claim I haven't yet answered?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                            Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
                            Does anyone have any other questions? Things they claim I haven't yet answered?
                            I don't have another question, but I have suggestions.

                            A) Make regular reporting of member utilization and Pro downloading a feature of the site, as this is the type of service that begs for that to assuage customer concerns (I've said this before but I can't say it enough)

                            B) Do a better job with communication. You have a lengthy screed on the site, "The What, How, and Why". It says the following:

                            Writers will not know the names of the people who viewed, downloaded, or rated their scripts, only the number of people who do. We do this to encourage reads, and it reflects the reality of the way material is discovered in practice. It’s possible that in the future industry professional members may have the ability to opt into making their identity known in this way. It’s something we are considering.

                            This clearly answers one of the main questions that keeps popping, but the problem is -- it's in the middle of a lengthy screed. Even though you have a Help & FAQs section, it doesn't include this answer. In fact, many of the questions/concerns that have been brought up here aren't specifically addressed in that section.

                            In this thread, you've provided a lot of useful information/answers that I've never seen addressed before. Why just keep it in this thread? Why not place them in a dedicated section on the site called "Misconceptions And Concerns About the Service" or something?

                            Honestly, people wouldn't be asking half as many questions if these concerns were explicitly addressed in a straightforward fashion on your site. Research has shown that in many businesses, a significant driver of customer discontent is inadequate or poor communication. This isn't hard to figure out.
                            "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                              Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                              I don't have another question, but I have suggestions.

                              A) Make regular reporting of member utilization and Pro downloading a feature of the site, as this is the type of service that begs for that to assuage customer concerns (I've said this before but I can't say it enough)

                              B) Do a better job with communication. You have a lengthy screed on the site, "The What, How, and Why". It says the following:

                              Writers will not know the names of the people who viewed, downloaded, or rated their scripts, only the number of people who do. We do this to encourage reads, and it reflects the reality of the way material is discovered in practice. It's possible that in the future industry professional members may have the ability to opt into making their identity known in this way. It's something we are considering.

                              This clearly answers one of the main questions that keeps popping, but the problem is -- it's in the middle of a lengthy screed. Even though you have a Help & FAQs section, it doesn't include this answer. In fact, many of the questions/concerns that have been brought up here aren't specifically addressed in that section.

                              In this thread, you've provided a lot of useful information/answers that I've never seen addressed before. Why just keep it in this thread? Why not place them in a dedicated section on the site called "Misconceptions And Concerns About the Service" or something?

                              Honestly, people wouldn't be asking half as many questions if these concerns were explicitly addressed in a straightforward fashion on your site. Research has shown that in many businesses, a significant driver of customer discontent is inadequate or poor communication. This isn't hard to figure out.
                              If you've only seen it in this thread, it's because you haven't been looking. I've addressed quite literally every question you've asked in multiple threads on DoneDeal and Reddit. And as you point out, all of these questions are also addressed on the site, but I've gone so far as to answer people's questions directly instead of simply pointing them to links that address them. I will continue to do it, but let's not be disingenuous about this information not being readily available online or via customer service or social media.

                              As I said in previous threads, to you directly, your suggestions have been noted and may be implemented in the future, but you, like others, seem to be taking the very small vocal minority here and at Reddit as somehow representative of customers' reaction to the site as a whole.

                              As I've said, the biggest problem we're facing right now isn't customer discontent, it's overwhelming customer demand.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: An Open Letter to Franklin About the Black List

                                Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
                                If you've only seen it in this thread, it's because you haven't been looking. I've addressed quite literally every question you've asked in multiple threads on DoneDeal and Reddit. And as you point out, all of these questions are also addressed on the site, but I've gone so far as to answer people's questions directly instead of simply pointing them to links that address them.
                                It's great that you've answered these questions in forum threads (be they DoneDeal, Reddit, or otherwise). But I'm not talking about forum threads -- they easily get buried over time as new threads come in (and frankly, when they get as long as they do, no one really wants to burrow through them for answer). Or customer service replies, where only the person asking gets the information.

                                I'm talking specifically about your website, the central, main public source for information about the service. As of right now, it does not answer the following common questions in a clear, easy-to-find manner:

                                *What percentage of scripts are downloaded that have not received an evaluation on the site?

                                *Why does hosting for a script start right away, instead of when an evaluation is completed?

                                *Why doesn't BL offer any evaluation bundles or discount packages?

                                *What exactly does a numerical rating in evaluations represent/mean?

                                *Why are the identities of industry professional members kept hidden? Why can't BL at least provide their titles?

                                These questions are either not answered at all on the site, or their answers are scattered in different sections (not the Help & FAQs one) ranging from the What, Why, How section to the 2013 Annual Report. You may think they are limited to a "vocal minority" in this forum, but I'd like to think DDP represents a good sample of writers' questions about the service in general.
                                "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X