Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

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  • #91
    Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

    I have to say, I don't care where I read the scripts, but I trust Comic with the notes. And to be honest, I don't think there's a conspiracy or will be one. Jeff's notes will be his, mine will be mine. I'd say a big portion of the active DD community will be watching. There is a sect that wants me to get embarrassed away from the boards, I can promise you. That's not gonna happen. There is a sect that is just really curious how similar or dissimilar our POVs on the material will be. I can tell you I am going to try real hard. I'm going to try and really digest the material and make sense as to what the writer is intending on doing and I will write up my best solutions on how to get the script closer to fruition.

    I expect Jeff to not take this lightly. I mean, no one will be shocked if he wins. He's the writer with credits and a career. If he loses, I have to imagine he's gonna be a little embarrassed, and by a little I mean a lot. In this matchup, He's Iron Mike when Tyson was Iron Mike. The question is am I Buster Douglas or some bum who gets knocked out in round 1?

    You say why would you do it then? Why in the world would you challenge him? Cause I want to see where I stack up against someone with ability. For others they are know that they don't stack up so they don't even try or they are too scared of the answer. I don't care. Screenwriting is not my life and I will never be some hot shot screenwriter out in LA. That's not how I made any of my money and it's not how I support my family. I love it though. I love telling stories. I love the craft. I love movies. It's interesting to me to debate and read about he craft.

    I think me and Jeff should do a weigh in and put our fists from each others nose.

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

      However you want to handle it is fine.

      I really do not think that it matters if people know who is the author of each set of notes.

      People would be able, in any case, to guess the author of each review. Everyone would just like to see how the two of you handle things.

      To me it would make just as much sense to let each of you post your notes with your name attached.

      "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

        Look, Jeff knows that Jeff can write his notes in a way where people know it is him. All he has to do is get into the technical points of shooting a TV show and how that impacts a script, which I know nothing about and will not be including in any way in what I have to say. All I can do is take apart the concept, premise, characters, and plot. But for the sake of being fair, I like the idea of Comic posting both sets. Steve should make the script available on Monday, Jan. 1. Jeff and I have until the end of Friday Jan. 5 to submit to Comic's email in which format? PDF? Saturday morning, the notes go live. Reviewer #1 will be the person who sent their notes back first and Jeff and I stay silent as to if we have completed our notes or not.

        Who is judging? Just Steve? So there is just one vote? Or is the community judging? Lets be crystal clear on how the scoring will work.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

          ComicBent, that's very generous of you. However you and Steve want to handle posting the script is fine, obviously anonymity doesn't matter there. I will email you my notes.

          I promise not to mention the technical aspects of production, mostly because that's the last thing a writer should be worrying about at this stage of a script.

          Cyfress, I appreciate you trying to build up my chances, but I fully expect to you to beat me soundly. I expect Steve will find your notes more insightful and helpful, as will the community.

          Let's be honest - you're a professional script consultant, and I've never been paid a penny to do it in my life. You've studied dramatic theory and screenwriting paradigms extensively - I don't even recognize half of the terms you use, let alone know how to consciously apply them!

          Again, anything short of an overwhelmingly positive reaction to your notes would be a great personal embarrassment to you, given your level of expertise. But I wouldn't worry about that - I think the odds of that happening are remote approaching nonexistent.

          You're kind to point out my writing experience, but that has nothing to do with being able to help others write. I know a bit about golf; the greatest teachers aren't the greatest players. World class athletes can be completely stymied with what's wrong with their game, only to have a coach watch one swing and fix them by shifting a hand an eighth of an inch. Great teachers have magic; I fully assume that you have that magic.

          To stick with golf, amateurs just don't win at the professional level. The last time an amateur won a PGA event was 1991. In fact, it's happened four times since the 1950s.

          That's what you're asking of me. You're asking me, an amateur, to win an event against an professional.

          I was probably foolish to have taken on this challenge, given the humiliation that awaits me. I only hope I'm strong enough not to flee the boards forever in shame.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

            Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
            I was probably foolish to have taken on this challenge, given the humiliation that awaits me. I only hope I'm strong enough not to flee the boards forever in shame.

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

              Keep your head up Jeff, you'll make it someday.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                This is why we can't have nice things.

                How many pros have we run off with crap like this?

                It's sad.

                Thanks for playing, Jeff. But I fear this doesn't end well.
                Eric
                www.scriptreadguaranteed.com

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                  I will be strong!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                    Sooo... last night I thought to myself, "Hmmm. Haven't checked DD for some time."

                    Alas, I find this thread including a throwdown between Cyfress and Jeff Lowell.

                    Feels like the good old days -- I look forward to seeing the results.

                    Happy New Year to all.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                      Run off? Jeff has never been more involved. Why would he run off? This is a fun, spirited contest. It's good for DD and the DD community.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                        THE PLAN

                        THE SCRIPT

                        Steve will post his script somewhere on January 1. He will provide further information about this. Jeff and Cyfress will write notes (coverage) for the script.

                        NOTES
                        • Jeff and Cyfress will send me their notes.
                        • You can send them in an email or in an email attachment.
                        • If you send an attachment:
                          • I can read any kind of attached file as long as it is a Windows program file.
                          • A plain text file would be fine as an attachment.
                          • If you are using a Mac, your attached file should be a PDF, or it can be a text document from a recent version of FinalDraft (which is readable in the Windows version). I can convert the PDF to text for posting on the board, but having original text is an easier situation to deal with.
                        POSTING
                        • I will post the two sets of notes in the Script Pages forum. I will designate one set as Reviewer #1 and the other as Reviewer #2 (or something similar).
                        • I will post the notes when I have received both sets, and that might be before the deadline of late Friday night, January 5. If I have not received both sets by the deadline, I will post whatever I have.
                        • I will reveal the names of the reviewers at a later date, when it appears that board members have had an ample opportunity to read the notes and post any observations.
                        SEND TO

                        Me, ComicBent / Roland Stroud at:
                        [email protected]

                        If you have any questions, let me know.

                        "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                          Sounds good. So Comic, would you prefer a word document over a PDF?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                            Originally posted by ComicBent View Post
                            Did we finally decide on how to proceed? I am not clear on that. Maybe I can help?
                            I'd like to suggest the following on how to proceed:

                            Steve's TV script should be made available, at this stage, only to Jeff and Cyfress at the same agreeable time and their notes, once completed, sent to ComicBent. If there's a deadline or not for completing the notes, that would be agreed upon by Jeff and Cyfress.

                            Once the notes are completed, they'll be sent to ComicBent and he will send them to Steve with no identifying names where Steve will view the notes and score them. (More on scoring later.)

                            Once Steve has completed his evaluation of the notes, he would send the scores to ComicBent along with the link to the location where he will now post the pages.

                            ComicBent will then post the notes and link to the TV script, but, at this time, not reveal Steve's scores, or the identity on who wrote which review.

                            I suggest to hold back on Steve's scores and identifying names because I think it would be educational for the community to let them give their opinion on the notes, in relation to the content of Steve's TV script, before anything is revealed that could influence their opinions. (ComicBent will reveal the scores and identities when the DD community seems finish with their comments.)

                            No matter who the majority of the community thinks is the winner, it's Steve's script so it's Steve's opinion that counts on who did the best job in helping make his script stronger.

                            The reason that I suggested for the link to the script be held back until the notes are sent to ComicBent is so there wouldn't be any influential comments from the community before Jeff and Cyfress completed their evaluations.

                            The reason I suggested that Steve should not know which review belongs to whom is because then there will be deniability to any accusations that Steve favored one over the other, no matter how obvious it may be on who the author is of the review from their voice.

                            My suggestions on how to score the TV script are the following:

                            First, I suggest there should be no minimum or maximum on how long the page count should be for the pages of notes. The page count will be whatever the reviewer feels is necessary to achieve a strong script.

                            With that being said, the amount of pages should have no bearing on the score. Only the value of the pages' content will be the deciding factor on the scoring.

                            For example, writer 1's notes is 3 pages and writer 2's notes is 6 pages. Both notes express the same problems and solutions of the script, so which writer is the winner? If you believe it's a tie, or it's writer 2 because he put more time and energy into his review, I disagree.

                            I disagree because writer 2 should not be rewarded for being a windbag. Writer 1 should be the winner because he expressed the same insight as writer 2, but more efficiently, thereby saving the reader time and energy.

                            I suggest that Steve base the scoring on a number range of 1 (poor) to 10 (excellent ) indicating the value and helpfulness of the notes.

                            A reviewer, if he wishes, can mention elements that work, but for this challenge all notes on what works will be disregarded as far as scoring. Jeff has a time issue because of his work, so the reviewers focusing on just the problems and solutions will help save him time and energy that he needs for his paying gigs.

                            ComicBent, I suggest when the time comes to post the notes and link you do it in a forum where a member does not need to sign in to be able to see that it's posted and to be able to gain access.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                              Joe, all of that might be a little too complicated.

                              I will post in the Script Pages forum, which anyone can view. I think that the goal is to be educational, as in what do these two reviewers see in the script? Do they agree? Is each of them doing a thorough job of examining the script?

                              If people want to vote, as in 1-10, they can do so informally in what they post. Others will get the idea as to who fared better in the comparison.

                              -----

                              Cyfress, a Word document will be fine as long as it is Windows, not Mac.

                              Do not send a PDF file that Word creates - some of those files are real garbage. If you are using a Mac, then save as PDF with the built-in Mac PDF driver.

                              Not to get off into the weeds here, but a lot of you know that I am at least a semi-expert, anyway, when it comes to handling file formats. The problem with a PDF file is that any PDF file works fine in a PDF viewer, but when you try to convert to text for posting or editing, you may have a mess on your hands. It all depends on the PDF driver that was used to make the PDF. Some drivers work great, and the file can be converted to text; others give total gibberish when you try to convert. However, I have all kinds of tools and I can always find a way to handle even a terrible PDF.

                              For Windows users, I strongly recommend that you download the free Bullzip PDF driver. It works great, even better than the free PrimoPDF driver that I used to recommend. It creates a PDF file that converts to text very well.

                              "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                                The ironic thing is, a very successful, female TV Writer/Producer out in LA, who worked on King Of Queens and now works on Two Broke Girls grew up about 3 houses down from me in Philly. I'm sure if I said her name Jeff would know who she is. I'll challenge her next.

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