Oh Dog, here we go again...

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  • #61
    Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

    Originally posted by entlassen View Post
    After Craig they should get Chris Hemsworth into the role, provided he's done with all those dumb marvel movies.
    Hemsworth is Australian so what qualifies him more than anyone else?

    You can pretend it's the Scottish thing if you want, but quite clearly you just don't want to see a black actor in a big role. With that I am checking out of this thread, I hate myself for even posting now.

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    • #62
      Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

      Originally posted by Bairn_Writer View Post
      Hemsworth is Australian so what qualifies him more than anyone else?
      I don't know if he's more qualified than anyone else. He'd be my pick for the role. He's the right age, the right height, has the right personality, and yes, would be believable as an Englishman of Scottish/French-Swiss descent.

      You can pretend it's the Scottish thing if you want but quite clearly you just don't want to see a black actor in a big role.
      I don't care if black actors get lead roles. The problem is that James Bond isn't black. Nor is he East Asian, Arab, or a native of Siberia. He's white. SJW's just need to embrace that oh-so horrifying truth.

      With that I am checking out of this thread, I hate myself for even posting now.
      Don't hate yourself. Everything will be okay.

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      • #63
        Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

        So I'm driving to New York with a fellow indie comic creator who has the misfortune (gasp!) of being "not white" (although he is whiter than other non whites and I've heard this is also a problem, but I digress...) and we explored the merits of this type of discussion due to the excrutiating amount of road worn hours and only so many "marry, f*ck, kills" at our disposal. In the waning hours of our drive/ride, he brought up the subject of the black creator and how he is treated by the black community of creators (or at least how he was treated in one particular circumstance, but I'm growing tired of feeling the need to add on all this legalese footnoting in case someone wants to fine tooth comb me and brand me intolerant or maybe a misogynist due to my M/F/K reference earlier... idk... I'm not here to change minds, just to toss in a couple of pennies and a different perspective).

        Anyway, he had the audacity to create a comic book full of white people and he was scorned for such a thing. How could a black creator not have one black person in the entire story? It's unheard of. His response... All the characters in the story are criminal womanizing irresponsible @asshats... they are all bad people. Oh... that was okay then. Huh? Whatever. Doesn't matter. So then I ask my friend how they would respond to me creating a story with an all black cast in all my lily white glory. "Oh," he says, "That wouldn't go over good at all." I ask why. "Because you would be labeled a rascist." I nod. "Sure," I say. "That makes sense... in F*ckedupville." He shrugs. "It is what it is." I shrug. "It sure is."

        A few minutes later I say to him, "Do you know how many times a day, bombarded by all the media in our world, I think about race?" He shakes his head. "None," I reply. "Zero, zip, nadda." The only time I EVER think about it is when Al Sharpton is blowing his @ss for the camera/soundbyte or when the major news outlets feel like spin doctoring events because they know full well they'll stir a bees nest and get... wait for it... ratings!... you bet!... and turn that into?... you guessed it... advertising money... just like the distinguished aforementioned Reverend has about as much cultural value as a well worn sock if he isn't also stirring that same bees nest in order to give him the self validation he apparently thinks he deserves.

        I also only think about it when I read debates like this one. And it makes me frustrated and sad that I am once again forced to look at things in Black/White when all I ever care about is a good story, engaging characters, and smile on my face at the end of the day.

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        • #64
          Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

          To add...

          I don't believe the problem lies in audience perception. There's a million different versions of that and it's neither right or wrong or both and eternally debatable. The problem lies at inception and whether the change is done with color in mind. At that point, the decision maker (one person) has created the cultural rift by his/her own persoinal bias and agenda. I think sometimes that agenda shows through, and when that happens it deserves to be called out by any and all of the audience.

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          • #65
            Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

            Originally posted by entlassen View Post
            He's white. SJW's .
            Man, what does SJW's stands for? Does it mean we're all robot? Cause that'll be swell! Unless he talks about SSJ!

            Speaking of SSJ, funny how no white folks -god, I hate myself for that- said nothing about Dragon Ball Evolution with an almost all white cast (aside from the Mighty Chow Yun Fat, may he be bless with a thousand roses, even if he's hong kongese), David Carradine in Kung Fu, Ben Affleck in Argo, Kevin Spacey in Pay it forward, Jake Gyllenhaal in Prince of Persia, the Igloo characters in the Last air Bender, or any remake (like infernal affairs, or soon, the chaser) whose sole purpose is to replace asian actors with caucasian because (and I stated a distributor friends) "asians look alike" and they don't want to confuse american audience with our robot heads.

            Some lecture for you (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5515919.html)
            A great graph: (http://www.racebending.com/v4/wp-con...olesbyrace.png)

            You mentioned Hemsworth, and to me, that'll be a wrong chose. Imho, James bond equal Class, Danger, sophistication. It's not Hemsworth, not Craig too. In known actors, I only see Clooney, Elba and The mighty blessed Yun Fat.

            Have you seen the reactions online? People LOVES the idea of Elba as 007. Why?
            The question is : Do you work in the business?

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            • #66
              Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

              Entlassen defeated his own argument with Hemsworth.

              Takeshiro, SJW stands for Social Justice Warriors, a rather annoying brand of trolls. Though if you say anything reasonable on the internet you'll be accused of being a SJW. I miss the middle ground. Every opinion has to be extremist to actually register.

              As brought up I don't think Bond's family history has been all that important outside of Skyfall. Casting Elba wouldn't change much at this point and he seems best for the role.

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              • #67
                Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                Let's face it, most of the people pushing so hard for Elba to be Bond are doing it primarily because of race, and they are, at the end of the day, even though they might not be aware of it, racists. It's the same way the black turn out was so high for Obama, why? It can't be denied because a significant amount just want a black guy as President. Kayne West thinks a black Bond would be 'visionary'. So let's be under no illusions that it's all about pushing an agenda rather than any interest in story and character. Of course, funnily enough, if you point out to the racists how racists they are they'll label you racist, that's how these types work.

                Whether Elba would actually be good in the role, no idea, he might very well be, but I certainly don't like the way some try to muscle him into it.

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                • #68
                  Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                  Originally posted by Captain Jack Sparrow View Post
                  Let's face it, most of the people pushing so hard for Elba to be Bond are doing it primarily because of race, and they are, at the end of the day, even though they might not be aware of it, racists. It's the same way the black turn out was so high for Obama, why? It can't be denied because a significant amount just want a black guy as President. Kayne West thinks a black Bond would be 'visionary'. So let's be under no illusions that it's all about pushing an agenda rather than any interest in story and character. Of course, funnily enough, if you point out to the racists how racists they are they'll label you racist, that's how these types work.

                  Whether Elba would actually be good in the role, no idea, he might very well be, but I certainly don't like the way some try to muscle him into it.
                  The fact that you deal in "types" is why we no longer have the middle ground that Connor Noden misses. <grin>

                  Kanye West is a tool. A successful tool, but a tool nonetheless. To hold him up as the voice of people who think Elba is a terrific actor and perfectly suited to play Bond (for my part, based entirely on his work on The Wire), is like lumping anyone who disagrees in with white supremacists.

                  I perfectly understand the objections. Bond isn't black. I get it. So does everybody. I'm actually fairly in agreement with you on the issue of what we'll call "Affirmative Action." Racism to combat racism is just more of the same.

                  That said, I'm not propping Elba up as a future Bond frontrunner because he's black, because it's the PC thing to do, because etc. etc. I don't know where the idea came from initially that he should be Bond, but once it was out there it just made perfect sense.

                  So my point thus far in this topic has been: why does it f--king matter? He's black, so what. Daniel Craig is the first Bond to have light hair, and while I'm not going to bother researching it, he's probably the shortest Bond as well. One could argue that Bond is "supposed to be" tall, dark and handsome. One could argue, as some have (for the purpose of example) in this thread, that Sean Connery's Bond was a perversion of "the REAL James Bond, y'know, from the books!"

                  Do I think it's cool that we live in a time where a black 007 is a real possibility? Hell damn yes, I do. Do I want to see a black Indiana Jones? Hell no. Only one man is Indy, and that's Harrison Ford. But six men have been Bond, and we've seen a variety of differences over 50 years of this character. Skin color is the least of my concerns with who they choose to be lucky number (double-oh) seven.

                  (My greatest fear is that 6-10 years from now, Henry Cavill will put on the tux...)

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                  • #69
                    Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                    Originally posted by ChadStrohl View Post
                    ...A few minutes later I say to him, "Do you know how many times a day, bombarded by all the media in our world, I think about race?" He shakes his head. "None," I reply. "Zero, zip, nadda."

                    The only time I EVER think about it is when Al Sharpton is blowing his @ss for the camera/soundbyte or when the major news outlets feel like spin doctoring events because they know full well they'll stir a bees nest and get... wait for it... ratings!... you bet!... and turn that into?... you guessed it... advertising money... just like the distinguished aforementioned Reverend has about as much cultural value as a well worn sock if he isn't also stirring that same bees nest in order to give him the self validation he apparently thinks he deserves. ...
                    I just want to point out that as a white person, too, I can say I don't think about race, either. But that doesn't mean a lot of institutionalized racism is not taking place. Because it is. Today's racism is just more insidious, covert, now. You or I may not harbor racial bias in our hearts, however we're lying to ourselves if we think we represent the majority of white people.

                    Interesting that the Amy Pascal hacked emails reveal she wants Elba as Bond. Yet other emails show her biased remarks about Obama's taste in movies. I'm not criticizing her at all. I think this is clear evidence of where we're at, now. Intellectually, like Pascal, we abhor racial bias. But there's still that lingering part that sees those of a different skin color as the "other" even if we're not consciously aware of it in ourselves.

                    We're at a crucial place in our social evolution, right now. We're at that point where we may tell ourselves our race issues are behind us because of the obvious strides made. (Ditto on women's issues). But this is where we can backslide if we don't pay attention to what's going on. If we don't remind ourselves we still have a long way to go.

                    Al Sharpton is a flawed guy in many ways but as an activist our society needs him. Because he calls attention to the insidious racism a large number of people are unaware of and unaware that they, in many ways, practice themselves. I applaud him for keeping attention on these issues.

                    For example -- on Saturday my kid went roller skating with her friend's family. The girls been close for the last 4 years and I know the friend's Mom very well. When the Mom came to pick her up, I took pics of the girls, and we got into a conversation about how much they've grown. Both girls almost as tall as we are. And we shared the typical Mom concerns that others may see our 12 yo girls as older than they are. Then they got in the car and I poked my head in to say hello to her youngest child, a boy, 8 yo.

                    That's when I saw two older boys in the car who the Mom introduced -- her nephews, 13 and 15. Two tall, handsome African-American young men who also looked older than they are. And in that moment I grew worried for them. Because of the tragedies Al Sharpton makes sure I don't forget. And I need to be worried for them. I need to be aware of the fact that I may see them as my friend's nephews but others, especially those in positions of power, may likely see them as "the other." Sharpton is right -- I need to stay aware of this. It's the only way we can build a better future.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                      Originally posted by ChadStrohl View Post
                      A few minutes later I say to him, "Do you know how many times a day, bombarded by all the media in our world, I think about race?" He shakes his head. "None," I reply. "Zero, zip, nadda." The only time I EVER think about it is when Al Sharpton is blowing his @ss for the camera/soundbyte or when the major news outlets feel like spin doctoring events because they know full well they'll stir a bees nest and get... wait for it... ratings!... you bet!... and turn that into?... you guessed it... advertising money... just like the distinguished aforementioned Reverend has about as much cultural value as a well worn sock if he isn't also stirring that same bees nest in order to give him the self validation he apparently thinks he deserves.

                      I also only think about it when I read debates like this one. And it makes me frustrated and sad that I am once again forced to look at things in Black/White when all I ever care about is a good story, engaging characters, and smile on my face at the end of the day.
                      Interesting. I wonder if you or your not-white friend ever read this from 1988 White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                        Takeshiro: does Asia have a diversity problem? More specifically do Asian films have a lack of diversity? If not, is there a movement in Japan or Korea to import said diversity?

                        Takeshi Kitano is one of my favorite directors but I never watch his films asking, "where are the all the black/white/muslim people?" The only one of his films that had diversity in it was Brother, and that's only because it took place in L.A., and it was one of his worst films. Even he doesn't like it.

                        Chow Yun Fat? Awesome in A Better Tomorrow and his other John Woo collaborations, but terrible in most of his American movies due to language difficulties. Wasn't his fault though.

                        Your post doesn't distract from the fact that it's always white roles being handed over to blacks. The HP/Salon.com-reading types can only counter this either by ignoring, lying, or stretching the definition of "whitewashing" so that it includes Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian. Do they even realize that Persians were/are basically white? As for Cleopatra, she was a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty (famous for their fair hair actually) and was most certainly not black. She probably wasn't even swarthy. Afrocentrists are historically illiterate. F.W. de Klerk ran South Africa, I guess that makes him black. lmao.

                        Bond isn't just about class and sophistication, he's also about toughness. I can easily see Hemsworth pulling off all three. Fleming's books always highlighted Bond's physical toughness as well as his particular taste in drinks, hotels, etc.

                        As for Elba, he gets most of his support from people who don't like the Bond series to begin with. Their comments are usually accompanied by statements like "if Elba were Bond I might actually watch a Bond movie" or "Bond was always dumb but Elba might make it cool." That's basically their attitude; it's not about Bond, it's about Elba. It's not about Elba playing Bond, it's about Bond being turned into Elba. What makes it even more silly is that, to be honest, Elba isn't even that good an actor, if Prometheus and Pacific Rim are anything to go by.

                        I'd like to see a poll of Bond fans and see how many of them support Elba as Bond. It'd probably be very few.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                          Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                          That's the issue here. Bond's a specific character with a paternal lineage of Scottish nobility. His family has its own centuries-old coat of arms. His mother was from Switzerland. Ian Fleming derived the character from both himself and the people he knew in real life....

                          .
                          Brush up on your knowledge of Black Scots. It would be easy to keep that back story with a tweak or two.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                            Originally posted by entlassen View Post
                            That's the issue here. Bond's a specific character with a paternal lineage of Scottish nobility. His family has its own centuries-old coat of arms. His mother was from Switzerland. Ian Fleming derived the character from both himself and the people he knew in real life.

                            All of that background would need to be destroyed in order to accommodate a black actor. Like someone else in here said, it would be stunt casting. It wouldn't be Ian Fleming's James Bond, because it would have nothing in common with the man he created.

                            The black Bond crowd either ignores this or claims it's unimportant. And guessing from their general attitude, most of them don't like the series to begin with, which means they're driven primarily by the socio-political issue than finding an appropriate actor for the role.
                            Exactly. So we can't do anything that wasn't in the original Ian Fleming stories. Any villain, gadget, or love interest that does not perfectly match up with the original material is null and void. How dare James Bond drive a car that was made after 1966? Than it is not a true James Bond movie and should be thrown in the garbage.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                              Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
                              Exactly. So we can't do anything that wasn't in the original Ian Fleming stories. Any villain, gadget, or love interest that does not perfectly match up with the original material is null and void. How dare James Bond drive a car that was made after 1966? Than it is not a true James Bond movie and should be thrown in the garbage.
                              It's funny, I'm pretty sure I've seen 90% or more of all the Bond films, maybe even all of them actually. And, I've read some of the Ian Fleming stories, though it's been a while. And I had no idea that his mother was from Switzerland or that Bond was of minor aristocratic origins.

                              And now that I know those things, my feelings about the Bond experience are totally and completely unchanged. In no way do those these matter. It's really about an actor being able to channel the essence of Bond, and yeah, knowing those incredibly minor details might be good for an actor to get at the basic truths of how the character feels, acts, comes across. But, ultimately, nah, that **** doesn't really matter. Let's be honest, the Broccolis have made some unbelievably shitty, cheesy, stupid Bond films. So any precious safeguarding of the thing has already failed. The essence of the Bond character really transcends skin color ya know.

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                              • #75
                                Re: Oh Dog, here we go again...

                                Elba as Bond doesn't bother me in the slightest. I like him a lot for it. But if I were the studio, I would be much more concerned about coming up with a fresh story for Bond because everything feels derivative at this point. Great actors, great characters, great story, great spirit. That's truly all the matters. That's the way to honor the author. I would even be game for another 00 just to see something different. Let's see a Maggie Q 008 movie and maybe they can build a complete universe.

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