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Old 04-01-2010, 06:57 PM   #191
THEUGLYDUCKLING
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

i still haven't seen casablanca, gone with the wind or E.T.

but i have seen BASKETCASE and rank phantasm right up there with evil dead, well not right up there, but within spitting distance.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:28 PM   #192
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THEUGLYDUCKLING View Post
i still haven't seen casablanca, gone with the wind or E.T.

but i have seen BASKETCASE and rank phantasm right up there with evil dead, well not right up there, but within spitting distance.
You've gotta see and read Casablanca. It's a tight low budget screenplay, fantastic setting. Every word counts. Great dialogue.
Great characters. Emotional. Simple structure, complex relationships.

But who is the protag and who is the main character is disputable.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:45 PM   #193
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

195 posts and still no one has found a way to work "the usual suspects" into the discussion.

Lame.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:51 PM   #194
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

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Originally Posted by billmarq View Post
195 posts and still no one has found a way to work "the usual suspects" into the discussion.

Lame.
I swore I had, but realized that it was just the rough draft of my post where I talk about CITIZEN KANE. THE USUAL SUSPECTS has a similar structure. Modern-day protag, flashback protag. You could put THE PRINCESS BRIDE in the same camp.

Of course, in each case the modern day protag is just our way of accessing the real story.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:55 PM   #195
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

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Originally Posted by billmarq View Post
195 posts and still no one has found a way to work "the usual suspects" into the discussion.

Lame.
I made a Kaizer Soze reference earlier and made a really really forced usual suspects remark, but I thought better of it and took it out.

And now I wish I hadn't, because I feel like I've let you down.
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Old 04-02-2010, 09:19 AM   #196
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

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Originally Posted by haroldhecuba View Post
Let's see if we can get twenty pages out of this...
I knew we could make it.

HH
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:05 PM   #197
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

The real antagonist in Star-Wars.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8594101.stm
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:52 PM   #198
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

what’s interesting about this conversation thread, is… storytelling has been a literary process for a thousand years. when did the motion picture kinetoscope get invented… like the 1890’s?

the medium doesn’t change the intent or the process of storytelling, it just changes the method of delivery. we could be talking about film, paperback or stone tablets, but the process is still relatively the same.

lit basics:

the protag is the most complex character in the story. the antag is the one most oppositely affecting that complexity.

when a story has several equally complex characters - the protag is quite often the bland one at the center of the maelstrom. this is because the other dynamic character’s complexities raise the protag’s mildness above theirs due to the changing dynamics of association. in essence, their ethos collectively acts to raise the ethos of the protag.

ex: a tornado is going on - everywhere is total chaos; things are whipping about in the air, cows are flying, rain is pelting down, etc. what is going to be the most complex thing in this moving situation? something standing still.

this tool (i'm not sure what film folks call it) is a great option for telling complex tales, like the usual suspects , because it provides a solid anchor to return to each time the story diverges to explore the other competing complexities.

and, just like kaiser sose is an example of another tool: characterization as a macguffin. the idea of kaiser was used to drive the plot and repeatedly referenced by characters as: “who was kaiser sose?” this particular macguffin carried the whole film and gave a huge twist at the end. for me, this is one of things that makes the story and writing so good.

none of this is guru template stuff, it’s just established techniques from boring, outdated guys like aristotle.
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Old 04-02-2010, 11:21 PM   #199
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

/sigh

re: my previous post -

Okay, peeps. The line "round up the usual suspects" is a catch phrase from Casablanca, and spawned the name of the more recent movie with Kevin Spacey as Keyser Soze. I was waiting for someone to make a joke regarding the protaganist as being one of the usual suspects or some such nonsense.

For the record, all this discussion about Casablanca forced me to watch the film again last night on DVD. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who thinks Laszlo is the protaganist is deranged. It just ain't so. The character arc, motivational action and screen time all go to Rick.

'nuff said about that.
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Last edited by billmarq : 04-03-2010 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 04-03-2010, 12:42 AM   #200
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Default Re: Fatal Flaw?

For the sake of clarity:

The currently accepted definition of the term protagonist is too simplistic to describe the complexity of what really goes on inside of great stories.

Rick is the Main Character and has the greatest transformational change. I never once claimed that Lazlo had any kind of character arc or that he was somehow the reason for the story.

I would agree with you that anyone who said that would be deranged.
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