How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • #31
    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    Except, there are plenty of really successful movies that ignore those points completely. They happen at wildly different times, or don't happen at all, or happen multiple times.
    Well yeah, of course. "Pulp Fiction" is one of my favorite movies and its major beats don't hit any typical times. There are always exceptions. But this was advice being given to someone who hasn't broken into the industry who asked for "specific techniques". Not general, heard-it-before advice. Specific techniques.

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    I'm not saying ignore three act structure. I'm not saying don't look at movies you love and learn how they keep things fresh and interesting. I'm saying that putting up a road map and writing with those goals in mind can lead to trouble. Look at what someone said earlier in this thread: he doesn't understand why he's getting the reaction he is to his script, because his act two break is on page 28 and his midpoint is on page 55 out of 110 pages.
    Once again, I think the intent behind my original post is being exaggerated/twisted to make some righteously indignant point about formula. I said in that very post that "these aren't hard-and-fast rules I follow, just general guidelines that help keep me alert." That part has conveniently been ignored. Thus, I would never say that a script can't be/wasn't successful because its midpoint didin't land exactly on page 55. I think most writers who read what I wrote understand that, the same way the 3-act model serves as a general guideline to help maintain a strong structure, the same way what I described was meant to serve as a general guideline to help maintain strong pacing, which as Cyfress indicated, can be very difficult to keep track of. "Gut feeling" may sound cool to say, but it doesn't always work so easily for some people.

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    And even ignoring everything else, here's something to think about: the vast majority of people breaking in buy Save The Cat or some other blueprint for scriptwriting. Which means that all their scripts feel very much alike. I'd argue it's much harder to stand out from the pack and get work as a writer when you're writing the same script as everyone else.
    There's nothing wrong with people buying STC. It's a beginner's tool which I found very useful for my first couple of screenplays. Over time, reading more screenplays and getting feedback on my own, I learned how to play with the guidelines to make my stories more fresh and interesting. As I'm sure, many people do. This railing against beginner's tools (usually by pros who've already broken in) has become a bit predictable. It's fine to say don't be a slave to the formulas or rules, but to trash these tools completely when they do provide some value is going a bit overboard.
    "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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    • #32
      Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Taken is a great example of giving the middle finger to the Save the Cat structure.

      John Wick, too. Instead of the protag saving the cat, the antag kills the dog - a puppy no less - then takes the protag's car -- a classic Mustang symbolizing all things free and 'merican as can be. After that point you know you can sit back and enjoy extreme cathartic action to come. As a writer, I just had to smile admiring the writer's choices.

      The problem with any "should" advice telling us we need "something here" followed by "something there" is that it avoids the big question: how do you write "something" so good, so compelling, it makes everyone sit up and take notice? That takes talent. And no book can magically infuse you with talent.

      IMO, the first hurdle is determining whether or not the story we have in mind "must" be told. No, scratch that, is the story screaming to be told? And does that story lend itself well to the screen? Or, would it be better suited as short fiction or a novel?

      Until that is sorted out we run the risk of writing "me too" scripts that are at risk of being weak imitations of other scripts. Worse, we're lulled into thinking the weak imitation is good because the Save-The-Cat structure "appears" perfect.

      Edited to add: I would advise against reading Save The Cat -- I read it because a long ago manager asked me to because he used it as a guide. I wish I hadn't. Once you get that STC stuff stuck in your head it stays there and handcuffs your creativity in ways that aren't obvious until you break away from it. Looking back, I think the book over-simplified things to a ridiculous degree misleading readers by breaking down produced films to create a model, after the fact. Ironically, the films deconstructed for the book were made before the book was written.

      So obviously the writers of those script were not thinking, "My theme should be expressed on page 3." It happened organically in the writing.
      Last edited by sc111; 11-06-2015, 09:13 AM.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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      • #33
        Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        U&C, you seem to be trying to have it both ways - patting yourself on the back for providing "specific" advice, then pointing out that you never said people should actually follow it.

        The OP's question was actually asking pace, which he defined as "the rate at which new information is introduced." I think there's been a lot of good advice in this thread about how to do that moment to moment, scene to scene, sequence to sequence. That's the advice I think is the most useful.

        I don't think pointing out the eight pieces of information that you think should occur, and ideally at what minute marker, is the best or most helpful answer. You differ. I think that tackling a screenplay from that perspective isn't usually the best way to proceed. I'm not saying that advice is unique to you - there's a whole industry built around pointing out those markers.

        I'm sure people have had success following Save The Cat type templates. I would argue that the vast majority of working writers I know don't tackle structure that way. Again, there's a great example in this thread of someone who wrote his script so that X falls on Y page, so how could it be wrong?

        I've recommended Save The Cat to beginners. Along with many other books. My advice is to read them all, read all the blogs and listen to all the podcasts, take what works for you from each source, and then write your script.

        Luckily, the OP has a wide variety of viewpoints to choose from. God speed!

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        • #34
          Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
          U&C, you seem to be trying to have it both ways - patting yourself on the back for providing "specific" advice, then pointing out that you never said people should actually follow it.
          Not saying that I never said people should actually follow it. Just saying that I said that this is what helped me, and feel free to use it as you like. No rules!

          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
          I don't think pointing out the eight pieces of information that you think should occur, and ideally at what minute marker, is the best or most helpful answer. You differ. I think that tackling a screenplay from that perspective isn't usually the best way to proceed. I'm not saying that advice is unique to you - there's a whole industry built around pointing out those markers.
          That's fine. It's great to have your opinion. It's one of many.

          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
          I've recommended Save The Cat to beginners. Along with many other books. My advice is to read them all, read all the blogs and listen to all the podcasts, take what works for you from each source, and then write your script.

          Luckily, the OP has a wide variety of viewpoints to choose from. God speed!
          Agreed. That's the beauty of forums; they provide a great arena for healthy debates and varied ways of looking at things. It befits none of us to act like our advice is the Gospel, regardless of how far we've come in the industry. God speed, as well
          "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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          • #35
            Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
            "Gut feeling" may sound cool to say, but it doesn't always work so easily for some people.
            Do I sound cool saying that? If so, it's probably the first time I've sounded cool in my life. Look, I don't have the sustained career of a Jeff Lowell and I won't pretend to know everything because the one thing I've learned as a professional writer is that you never stop learning. I have survived some setbacks. And one of the greatest lessons that has gotten me out of trouble is to trust my instinct.

            When you are hired for an assignment and something drags and you know it, but the treatment says so-in-so happens by so-in-so page, remember the technique that trumps all - follow your gut. If you haven't come to that conclusion, that's fine. I'm just relaying my experience only. And it's a healthy discussion and I'd be lying if I didn't say I've picked up a book or two. Hope the OP and others find some usefulness to my comments.

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            • #36
              Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Every writer wears more than 1 hat. You are architect & construction foreman. You need the plans for the big picture, and you need to be able to execute all the small details that make the big picture possible.

              We know from History that the audience goes into movies with certain expectations depending on the genre. To write those expectations off as formula or page counting is counter productive to your story. Really, you should be super conscious of them.

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              • #37
                Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by madworld View Post
                Do I sound cool saying that? If so, it's probably the first time I've sounded cool in my life.
                madworld, that statement wasn't targeted at anyone in particular; it was just targeted at the general sentiment expressed by a few that any kind of guideline is a waste of time. I genuinely did not look up your comment when I wrote it.
                "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                • #38
                  Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  I liked NMS's thoughts about this so much I copied and pasted them into a file just so I could be sure to look at them later. Thank you, NMS.

                  However, I feel Up is taking a beating here for posting a rather accepted template for pacing. Surely it depends on what type of movie you are writing, but I just came back from seeing the new James Bond film and d@mn if it doesn't follow Up's thoughts. -- A pause for new info followed by a resulting action bonanza. Another pause for information, followed by another action fiesta. Many action/crime/even comedy films use this type of template. It's what the scenes are, what the info is that makes them standout or fail.

                  Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                  ... My most basic strategy for keeping their interest is to have something really interesting happening every 15 minutes. Every...15...minutes. It's not that big of a deal when you consider a movie is only two hours long.
                  I'm surprised there is such push-back, and I think it's because Up listed page numbers (15, 25, 40) as an example. And there is nothing like page numbers to make everyone bring out the pitch forks. But imo, some of you are taking the letter of the post instead of the intended spirit.

                  The point was move your a$$ and get to the good cr@p already! Which is something we can all agree on(?)

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                  • #39
                    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    I remember when I was in junior high, I was very confused about why I was learning to diagram sentences (my english teacher was very old-school) and write strict 5-paragraph essays while reading examples from great novel- and essayists that broke those rules all over the place. What was the point of learning these things if real success demanded you ignore them?

                    Now that I'm older, I understand that it's good to know the rules before you break them. Save the Cat and the Screenwriter's Bible and other template models are good for newcomers, I think, because they give you a foundation. Just because some people never move on from them doesn't mean that they aren't a decent starting point. And if you're stuck, it doesn't hurt to use them as a tool to get yourself un-stuck - again, assuming you understand that it's OK to move away from them (and you have a good sense for when and how to do that).

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                    • #40
                      Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Originally posted by figment View Post
                      I'm surprised there is such push-back, and I think it's because Up listed page numbers (15, 25, 40) as an example. And there is nothing like page numbers to make everyone bring out the pitch forks. But imo, some of you are taking the letter of the post instead of the intended spirit.
                      Thanks. My intent with the post (which I thought was clear) was not to list hard-and-fast rules, but to emphasize how important it is to keep things moving, and numbers are a great visual for emphasis. Fortunately, I have no problem being the lone dissenting voice, and pitchforks don't scare me. I eat them for breakfast
                      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                      • #41
                        Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                        This has been bothering me. My latest script was criticized for slow pace in act two, but it's structured nearly perfectly. Act II break is pg 28. Midpoint is on pg 55 out of 110. And it intensifies in its action accordingly.
                        It could be in reference to how it reads. If the reader feels like they've been reading forever and the pages aren't flying by it could just be the nature of the writing. Is it dense? Does the story move? Is there fat to trim?

                        Even if beats hit on certain pages that are close to the structure of a general movie it doesn't necessarily mean things are happening in between that are meaningful and interesting.

                        The best scripts get read super quick. The worst scripts are when you feel like you've been reading forever and you're not even halfway through. Has nothing to do with structure sometimes.
                        Quack.

                        Writer on a cable drama.

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                        • #42
                          Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                          "Gut feeling" may sound cool to say, but it doesn't always work so easily for some people.
                          I don't think it comes easily to anyone. The people who is appears to come easy to are people who did the work when you weren't looking. When you've spend a decade deeply into story, you tend to see the weak spots a little faster.

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                          • #43
                            Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            I've said my piece, so not gonna debate anymore due to a lack of interest in going in circles. I will say that this whole exchange has been quite entertaining. You guys would be fun to chat with in a bar
                            "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                            • #44
                              Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              Originally posted by ctp View Post
                              To me, pace is the rate at which new information is introduced and has little to do with cuts. With that in mind, I'm curious if yall have specific techniques for finding and keeping the right pace as you write.
                              I find it just comes naturally. Introductory scenes, set-ups etc., have longer, more complete sentences -- as the pace picks up, shorter "sentences" (often just a word or two) become the norm. (Not that I'm claiming to be a good writer.)
                              STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                              • #45
                                Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by ducky1288 View Post
                                It could be in reference to how it reads. If the reader feels like they've been reading forever and the pages aren't flying by it could just be the nature of the writing. Is it dense? Does the story move? Is there fat to trim?

                                Even if beats hit on certain pages that are close to the structure of a general movie it doesn't necessarily mean things are happening in between that are meaningful and interesting.

                                The best scripts get read super quick. The worst scripts are when you feel like you've been reading forever and you're not even halfway through. Has nothing to do with structure sometimes.
                                I've never got notes it was dense. Just that the midpoint didn't happen quick enough. That the first part of the second act was a preamble.

                                As for speed, I remember A Killing on Carnival Row taking forever to read, but I still enjoyed it. I think if a writer's wording is sexy, like Beacham's, it'll hold your interest longer.
                                I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

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