How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by figment
    So... your (and multiple others') answer to ctp's question: How do you guys control pacing throughout a script?" is... that if he asked the question he must want "insanely rigorous assembly instructions", because he just "wants" to write in a paint-by-number fashion?

    Okay...
    No, clearly, that wasn't an answer to the question of pacing. It was, however a response to something you mentioned in your post -- remember?

    "ctp, considering where this thread has gone, you have the patience of a saint."

    And the fact that I started my response with: "Yep, unfortunately a lot these discussions often veer off in this direction." Should have clued you in to that.

    In the meantime, how "exactly" is your snarky response to me helping to answer ctp's question?

    Considering that ctp asked the question ten days ago -- probably got his answer from NMS -- of whom you said: "NMS's response on page one was the best, most complete answer."

    And since ctp and NMS haven't been heard from since (at least in this thread), I think you're talking to a ghost, and/or trying make a point about thread drift.

    Go ahead, but when you bring up the up the subject, don't "act" shocked when someone else runs with it. It only makes you look sanctimonious.

    Originally posted by figment
    Sorry, ctp. There's no advice to be had. You're on your own. Apparently you suck and there's no hope for you if you don't already understand Every. Single. Aspect. of writing, intrinsically. If you were not born typing and thinking in three act structure (intrinsically, mind you) then you are clearly not a "storyteller." No need to want to improve or simply ask what others think, nope. Move along ctp. Move along.
    Care to introduce me to your friend, the Straw Man, some day? You two seem to be hitting it off.

    Originally posted by figment
    Fwiw, I think talent is a given, there does need to be talent, but to link a lack of talent to someone asking "Hey, what do you guys do to combat unintentional slowness" is actually insane.
    Since nobody has suggested that (except maybe your Straw Man friend), it looks like you're talking to yourself. So... maybe not a good time to use the word "insane". (Just saying.)

    Originally posted by figment
    Either that or ctp likes asking simple questions to watch the board implode, and he's enjoying every minute of it. That could be, too.
    And if so, you fell right into the slop too -- didn't you?
    "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by figment
      So... your (and multiple others') answer to ctp's question: How do you guys control pacing throughout a script?" is... that if he asked the question he must want "insanely rigorous assembly instructions", because he just "wants" to write in a paint-by-number fashion?

      Okay...

      Sorry, ctp. There's no advice to be had. You're on your own. Apparently you suck and there's no hope for you if you don't already understand Every. Single. Aspect. of writing, intrinsically. If you were not born typing and thinking in three act structure (intrinsically, mind you) then you are clearly not a "storyteller." No need to want to improve or simply ask what others think, nope. Move along ctp. Move along.

      Fwiw, I think talent is a given, there does need to be talent, but to link a lack of talent to someone asking "Hey, what do you guys do to combat unintentional slowness" is actually insane.

      Either that or ctp likes asking simple questions to watch the board implode, and he's enjoying every minute of it. That could be, too.

      NMS's response on page one was the best, most complete answer.
      Just so what I said isn't distorted, I am not saying the OP doesn't have any talent or instinct. I'm only saying that listening to your instinct can help with pace and it's easy to forget this sometimes. I would bet the OP has already read a book or three about screenwriting and is still asking the question, so I stand by my advice. It worked for me. And I've been in the trenches before too, I'm sure a lot of posters here have so it's a welcome question.

      Look it happened to me. I was working on a script for a producer and I had everything very tightly wrapped, a neat quick little first act. But deep down I knew I could have spent another page or two really developing the character. I ignored this feeling for the sake of a quicker pace and when the note came back to linger with the lead character more, I was not surprised. I was very disappointed I didn't listen to that inner voice. And it changed my writing. That's all I'm saying.

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      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by madworld View Post
        Just so what I said isn't distorted, I am not saying the OP doesn't have any talent or instinct. I'm only saying that listening to your instinct can help with pace and it's easy to forget this sometimes. I would bet the OP has already read a book or three about screenwriting and is still asking the question, so I stand by my advice. It worked for me. And I've been in the trenches before too, I'm sure a lot of posters here have so it's a welcome question.

        Look it happened to me. I was working on a script for a producer and I had everything very tightly wrapped, a neat quick little first act. But deep down I knew I could have spent another page or two really developing the character. I ignored this feeling for the sake of a quicker pace and when the note came back to linger with the lead character more, I was not surprised. I was very disappointed I didn't listen to that inner voice. And it changed my writing. That's all I'm saying.
        Nobody's saying you can't use instinct. That's like pantsers saying they don't outline because they don't like being "slaves to a roadmap.- Of course you can use your instinct.

        In terms of the OPs question though, to get really good answers, you kinda have to talk about how things are executed, which implies discussing process. For example, if you want to pace an arc, you kinda have to talk about how arcs are executed.
        Story Structure 1
        Story Structure 2
        Story Structure 3

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        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by figment
          Can we get back to the OP's question? Or are we going to continue arguing about meat, cheese, and the hero's journey?



          ctp, considering where this thread has gone, you have the patience of a saint.

          For me, I'm not a heavy outliner. But I will figure out and write down the main story points: inciting incident, end of act one, midpoint, "rush of madness" scenes of the second half of act two, end of act two, and the third act goal.

          That way I know all the subplots and character building stuff has to happen between those points...

          ... because too many subplot scenes in a row (even though they contain reveals/new info) can greatly distract from pacing, as the reader is waiting to get back to the Main Story. When a story lulls it is sometimes because you've lost sight of the protagonist -- he should be the guiding force of the piece, even when he isn't on screen.
          Calm down.

          We all gave advice at one point or another, a lot of it useful and more or less along the same lines.

          Engage the audience with every scene. Have a reasonable idea of what will occur and when. Move the story along with story revelations or character developments. Something along those lines. Simple

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          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Indeed, NMS gave the best answer to the ctp's original question. Out of the gate he identified the most likely problem:"Very little story."*

            We quickly went tangential when U&C posted what is essentially the Save The Cat (STC) structure (post #8). Then feathers were ruffled when pro-STC and anti-STC folks started mixing it up thus starting other tangents.

            But I think the tangents served a purpose to illustrate Save The Cat is not the answer to all issues that arise in a script. Not even close. In fact, during this discussion I looked at the STC stuff (online, I threw away the book years ago) and its iron-fisted beat sheet is even more ridiculously generic than I recalled at first.

            -----------------------------------------------------------=====---------------------
            *It's happened to me -- I start looking at a concept, play around with my usual skeleton outline and it soon becomes clear the concept's through line is simply not "long" enough to sustain a feature film.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
              Calm down.
              Huh? I'm perfectly calm.

              I asked if we could get back to the actual question -- which I don't think is unreasonable. And then I gave my own advice for ways I combat pacing problems. That's un-calm?

              --madworld I wasn't referring to any of your posts.

              Okay, I'm done.

              Comment


              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
                I never said a joke. Children can write wildly imaginative longform stories. And I imagine very few highly creative children have sat down to read up on story theory.

                No, absolutely not. Imagination cannot be taught.

                Explain to me how they follow the same pattern. I call b******t.
                You are demanding a recap of thise whole thread. Again: Every story is different from everything that is not a story. Therefore, all stories must have something in common. As a screenwriter, you should already know what that is.

                Here's the simple truth: Creativity and analysis can be found in our right and left brain hemispheres respectively. Most people are better in one area than in the other, but you should always use your whole brain if you want to write a good screenplay!

                Of course creativity can be tought. You can look this up on the internet, there are all kinds of techniques to become more creative. It's just that our Western school system favors analysis over creativity and even destroys children's imagination.

                @figment: It's only natural for a thread to derail like this. When everyone has presented his arguments, and some people only read superficially or don't react to other posts at all, it can only go around in circles or wander off in different directions.

                Let me try to answer his question:

                Pacing issues happen because of two reasons: Lack of content or abundance of content. Most writers have the first problem, the Nolan brothers the second. There's so much plot in their movies that the whole story nearly collapses.

                How do you figure out if you have too little plot? The most important element of plot that you should be looking at are your revelations/reveals: What the hero gathers about his opponents on his way towards his goal and that steers him into a different direction (the destination remains the same).

                The "break into act two", the "midpoint" and the "break into act three" are the most important revelations/reveals, but there are probably more. Most theatrical movies have between 7-11 of those reveals. If you have 5 or 6, you might need to stack some more into your story in front of the climax/finale to increase the pace of the second act.

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                • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Originally posted by figment View Post
                  Huh? I'm perfectly calm.
                  I was referring to the snarkiness of that comment and the ones that followed.

                  Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                  You are demanding a recap of thise whole thread. Again: Every story is different from everything that is not a story. Therefore, all stories must have something in common. As a screenwriter, you should already know what that is.

                  Here's the simple truth: Creativity and analysis can be found in our right and left brain hemispheres respectively. Most people are better in one area than in the other, but you should always use your whole brain if you want to write a good screenplay!

                  Of course creativity can be tought. You can look this up on the internet, there are all kinds of techniques to become more creative. It's just that our Western school system favors analysis over creativity and even destroys children's imagination.

                  @figment: It's only natural for a thread to derail like this. When everyone has presented his arguments, and some people only read superficially or don't react to other posts at all, it can only go around in circles or wander off in different directions.

                  Let me try to answer his question:

                  Pacing issues happen because of two reasons: Lack of content or abundance of content. Most writers have the first problem, the Nolan brothers the second. There's so much plot in their movies that the whole story nearly collapses.

                  How do you figure out if you have too little plot? The most important element of plot that you should be looking at are your revelations/reveals: What the hero gathers about his opponents on his way towards his goal and that steers him into a different direction (the destination remains the same).

                  The "break into act two", the "midpoint" and the "break into act three" are the most important revelations/reveals, but there are probably more. Most theatrical movies have between 7-11 of those reveals. If you have 5 or 6, you might need to stack some more into your story in front of the climax/finale to increase the pace of the second act.
                  No, I was asking you to tell me how Tokyo Story and The Hunger Games follow the same pattern. Because they absolutely do not. To lump together every story ever told seems lazy to me.

                  We can agree to disagree on creativity. I'm of the camp that it can't be taught, definitely not past childhood years. But if people feel it is possible to develop an imagination then good for them.

                  The rest of your post is pretty useful.

                  Comment


                  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Originally posted by Yaso View Post

                    ...Of course creativity can be tought. You can look this up on the internet, there are all kinds of techniques to become more creative. ..
                    A quick note on this part -- creativity and imagination are not synonymous. And innate writing talent is not synonymous with creativity or imagination.

                    A talented writer will possess a high level of creativity and imagination.

                    But a creative person with a good imagination is not guaranteed to go the distance as a writer without talent.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Originally posted by figment View Post
                      --madworld I wasn't referring to any of your posts.

                      Okay, I'm done.
                      No worries, I thought your post about subplots was good advice too btw.

                      Comment


                      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                        Most theatrical movies have between 7-11 of those reveals. If you have 5 or 6, you might need to stack some more into your story in front of the climax/finale to increase the pace of the second act.
                        Now we're literally counting the number of reveals in movies to determine how many reveals we want in our movie. How many obstacles should we have? How many characters? How fast, how slow should each scene go? Respectfully, this feels more like formula than form to me.

                        Comment


                        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Control pace? Easy.

                          Don't have long drawn out pages of dialogue.
                          Use lots of quick cuts, but not (CUT TOs) to tell large amount of story in a short time span.
                          Simply showing and not telling is fast be definition.
                          Streamline your story
                          Reduce the number of pages
                          Jump right into your story on page 1. The deep end. Don't wade.
                          Make it entertaining. Time flies when you're having fun.
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                          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            Control pace? Easy.

                            Don't have long drawn out pages of dialogue.
                            Use lots of quick cuts, but not (CUT TOs) to tell large amount of story in a short time span.
                            Simply showing and not telling is fast be definition.
                            Streamline your story
                            Reduce the number of pages
                            Jump right into your story on page 1. The deep end. Don't wade.
                            Make it entertaining. Time flies when you're having fun.


                            And in here lies the rub. There isn't a writer on here that doesn't think their not doing those things already. Raise your hand if you're not trying to jump into the story on page 1. Raise you're hand if you're trying to tell and not show the story. That great story editor that exists inside of great writer, call it inner critique, call it gut, call it instincts. He can look at it and easily see how the script is wrong and what steps need to be taken to properly portray the story points he/she believe to be vital to the plot.

                            Most people are just not working smart enough, no matter how much effort they are putting in. I'll say it again and I usually get in trouble around here if I do, but most writers are not nearly as hard on themselves as they should be. The 'This is the story I want to tell' defense usually gets played when faced with heavy criticism

                            If you think it's gonna take one draft and a polish to get the job done, you are sadly mistaken. If you're not changing things around, dissolving two characters into one, deleting scenes, creating new ones, changing the opening, etc, scripting totally new conversations in the scenes you even decide to keep, Then you are not rewriting. You're polishing. The best writers are the best rewriters for sure.

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                            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              I'm very new here and so feeling my way around but for sitcom writing I basically followed this rule: If it isn't moving the story along, setup, gag or punchline I cut it.

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                              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by Bluefunk View Post
                                I'm very new here and so feeling my way around but for sitcom writing I basically followed this rule: If it isn't moving the story along, setup, gag or punchline I cut it.
                                Yeah, I tend to think that if there's a moment in your show/movie where people can get up to go to the bathroom and feel like they haven't missed anything when they come back, then maybe you've got a problem.

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