Selling your jokes on the page

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  • Selling your jokes on the page

    I'm a little baffled. As some of you know, I'm in a writing group where I have a group of very talented actors cold read our stuff. It's invaluable - really getting a chance to see how things sound, rather than just how they read.

    So I'm experimenting with a comedy - not usually my thing - and I didn't have a ton of time and just bashed out some pages and brought them in. They killed.

    Awesome. It's fun when you try to write something funny and people really laugh.

    But ...

    Looking back at the pages, I found myself surprised at some of the jokes that killed. For example, this exchange:

    Code:
    RACHEL
    I can't jump.
    
    CHUCK
    Yes you can.  And I don't mean to rush you, 
    but you need to do it now. I'll slow us down 
    and stall it, it'll just be a 30 foot drop.
    And what I find fascinating is that I think the joke is almost invisible on the page. Do you see it?

    I don't expect it to be terribly funny absent context, but I'm not sure you can even see where the joke is supposed to be.

    In any event it's sloppy, first draft stuff, but the actor found it and nailed it.

    But ...

    Is somebody reading this who isn't an actor even going to see it? Are they going to know that there's a joke there at all, much less the best one in the scene?

    So I figure I could set it up like so:

    Code:
    RACHEL
    I can't jump.
    
    CHUCK
    Yes you can.  And I don't mean to rush you, 
    but you need to do it now. 
    
    She starts losing it.
    
    CHUCK
    I'll slow us down and stall it, it'll just be 
    a 30 foot drop.
    Throw a line of action in there to break away the rest of Chuck's line, and I think everybody can at least see the joke, right? Or maybe even go forward and give him an action that's less arbitrary (just made that one up off the top of my head) that has him shoving her out the door to go with his "I don't mean to rush you" line - but that makes it much much broader than I want it to be.

    Again, not expecting it to be funny absent context, and not worried about that, but you can at least see where the joke is now, right? This was nowhere near the funniest joke on the page but it got the biggest laugh of anything. And without a little coaxing, it's almost invisible on the page.

    So my question is: how much do you do this with your jokes? How much do you break dialog lines with actions just for the point of providing space for the jokes, to call attention to them? How much do you think this is necessary?

    I'd love to see examples from how other writers handle this sort of thing with jokes that aren't necessarily the most obvious jokes in the world.

  • #2
    Re: Selling your jokes on the page

    I hate to admit it...I really do, but I'm still not getting the joke. That totally pains me because I think I have a good sense of humor.

    SL35
    SL35
    Potent dreamer. Newb disclaimer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Selling your jokes on the page

      The joke is the line "I don't mean to rush you, but you need to do it now."

      Again, I don't expect it to land without context and don't really want to post the whole scene (which is, to be honest, a sloppy mess). But honestly, even with that, the truth is the joke doesn't land on the page that well. And as I wrote it, it's sort of buried in the middle of the line making it even harder to see.

      But it freakin' killed read aloud.

      And that's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. Previously when I've done humor it's been fairly straightforward banter and wordplay.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Selling your jokes on the page

        I thought the joke was supposed to be "it'll just be a 30 foot drop"... which seems like a pretty big drop.

        Huh...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Selling your jokes on the page

          There's no joke when it's written out like that. On the other hand, something like:

          "I don't mean to rush you, dear, but you kinda have to hurl yourself off this cliff in the next five seconds or we're both gonna die."

          is 10x more clearer.
          I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Selling your jokes on the page

            Mediocre jokes are frequently enhanced by an actor's delivery, or accentuated by the performance of some complimentary action. That is why table reads are conducted in episodic television. They enable cast and crew to determine whether the written jokes translate effectively to a live performance.
            Manager Tracker: Keeping track of what scripts managers are reading in Hollywood. http://www.managertracker.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Selling your jokes on the page

              I recognized the "I don't want to rush you, but I'm going to throw you out of this plane" joke and also thought the "Just a thirty foot drop" was funny.

              Successfully writing comedy, especially spec comedy, where no one knows your voice, timing, or delivery, and when there are no actors in our mind when we read it, has to be the most difficult genre to take on in this business.

              We had a thread on here a little while ago where people were asked what kind of genre was easiest or hardest for them to write (something like that anyway) and I was floored by how many people said comedy was the easiest for them. While technically that could be true for those people, actually being recognizably funny on page is an extremely hard skill to master and many people never can. And then there's the problem of writing funny but jokes getting lost in translation when they're acted out.

              Among other things, one of the reasons for comedy being so difficult is exactly what you are presenting here. If you're not going broad with it and the joke is more subtle, you've got to have huge balls to try to pull it off page after page and you've got to be darn sure it's actually funny.

              You have access to these reads by live actors, so that will certainly help you with the caveat being you can't completely trust the read and how much it's killing because it's very possible it's just the actor getting the laugh. Maybe you have a Zach Galifinakis in your midst who could read a phone book and get major laughs, or maybe it's the Dane Cook mystique where people are laughing because they think he's hot.

              The point is, you can't overanalyze comedy too much, but you also can't just take other people's word for what's funny. That's why it's always best to go with your gut and what makes you laugh. And even then, remember that something can always be funnier, so workshop those jokes to death...which, again, is where the table reads will help you tremendously.
              On Twitter @DeadManSkipping

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                Obviously this is incredibly subjective. Here's why it didn't work for me out of context.

                First, I think it's fine as a line a character would say. It's amusing. But I don't think it's a "joke" right now. Through your actors proved otherwise.

                For it to be a joke, it would rely on contrast, but I don't think you have enough. Though it's tough without knowing the tone of the piece.

                "Yes you can. And I don't mean to rush you, but you need to do it now."

                First, the "Yes you can." This has a big impact on the joke. It sets our expectations that Chuck believes Rachel can jump, and will definitely encourage her to do so. There's an inherent "rush" or urgency already added with his immediate response. "I can't jump!" "Yes you can." That's why when he says "I don't mean to rush you," we already know he's being insincere.

                "I don't mean" might soften it too. We're trying to hit a solid contrast between "no rush" and "actually, it's a rush." But I think the "yes you can" might be the biggest trouble maker.

                RACHEL
                I can't jump.

                CHUCK
                It's ok. Take your time, and jump right now.

                ---

                RACHEL
                I can't jump.

                CHUCK
                It's ok. Not trying to rush you, but jump right now.

                ---

                They're better on the page in my opinion, but I'd be curious to see if others agree. Saying "It's ok" starts off Chuck with a more "comforting" angle, which fits better with "not trying to rush you" and sets up the contrast at the end.

                Then there's the question, is it even the RIGHT joke? Sometimes the nuance makes little difference, and there's a better option. You can always keep going until there's something that's great on the page and when actors deliver it.

                RACHEL
                I can't jump.

                CHUCK
                But you can step forward, off this ledge.

                ---

                RACHEL
                I can't jump.

                CHUCK
                But you can fall. (+ CALL BACK TO EARLIER IN THE SCRIPT, WHEN RACHEL FELL OVER)

                ---

                RACHEL
                I can't jump.

                CHUCK
                Then you can die alone.

                (CHUCK JUMPS. RACHEL SWEARS. JUMPS AFTER)

                ---

                RACHEL
                I can't jump!!!

                CHUCK
                Rachel, I need you to calm down. And calmly jump the **** off this ledge.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                  Originally posted by Recreant View Post
                  I thought the joke was supposed to be "it'll just be a 30 foot drop"... which seems like a pretty big drop.

                  Huh...
                  I also thought this was supposed to be the "joke". Thirty feet is three stories. In real life, they won't walk away from it. The "no rush, but we have to do it now" is something we've all heard before, not that it can't still be funny.

                  But I don't think of either line as "jokes", just funny lines. It all reads better when you break it up, though. And it's harder to "get" on the page, without knowing the context and tone. But I think they could be set-up better with funny A/D.

                  A good actor really brings the comedy alive with timing, delivery, and nuance. They can even make a line funny that's not originally meant to be funny.

                  I often watch comedy, and when something is really funny, I try to imagine how it was written, and if it was that funny on the page.
                  "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                    This is my opinion (as I polish my first script):

                    I don't sell my jokes at all on the page. I trust that a component actor is going to take each "speech" of dialogue and practice five different nuances. They will find the best one and the joke will either appear or give way to some better interpretation of the line.

                    For them it's not finding a needle in the haystock. My ensemble script has about 7500 words of dialogue. Even assuming the main character had half the dialogue, that is only 3750 words spread out across a 20+ day hypothetical shoot. I think a competent actor can find the best way to perform 200 words/day. If there's meant to be a joke, they will find it.

                    If you meant Hollywood assessing the desirability of your script? I am not a comedy writer but I did some standup. I think material and its delivery comes off as more likeable when you stay cool and don't seem to be trying to so hard. When you are forcing it, that makes people a bit uncomfortable and cheapens any laughs you get. I'm not saying be lazy, but people relax and laugh easier when it seems somewhat effortless to you.

                    These are only my amateur opinions.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                      The classic example of this kind of joke is Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Woudl that play as well on the page, when we can't see the size of the drop? I haven't read the script but if its painted correctly in the reader's mind then I think yes. Newman did nail the line, woudl be curious to know how it was scripted now to see how much was him and how much was Goldman.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                        FWIW, I think the first exchange is better. I can see the joke and why it sells the point. It has room to breathe. There's this build up... Chuck is coaxing Rachel. She doesn't want to do it, it's crazy right? But she steps a little closer... she relents a bit.... then Chuck comes back with: "it's only a 30 foot drop". HUH? It's funny because no human could survive that kind of jump without a parachute. The joke is off the page.

                        But in the second exchange we lose the momentum because it telegraphs to us what Rachel's reaction is supposed to be. We lose the joke off the page. Anyway, IMHO.
                        life happens
                        despite a few cracked pots-
                        and random sunlight

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                          I guess with it being a visual medium, I would set it up different.

                          RACHEL
                          I can't jump.

                          CHUCK
                          Yes you can. It's only a few feet.

                          Rachel steps up and looks down the 30 foot drop.

                          RACHEL
                          Are you crazy?!?

                          Chuck shrugs and pushes Rachel out.

                          CHUCK
                          Maybe.

                          Chuck leaps to follow Rachel out.

                          Then again, I've been told I don't trust my audience so maybe I'm putting too much out there.

                          SL35
                          SL35
                          Potent dreamer. Newb disclaimer.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                            Watch an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, listen for some of the biggest laughs, then backtrack 2/3/5 lines of dialogue. Maybe more. Are those lines/words big-laugh funny? Often, no. And my sense is, actually - rarely.

                            Punchlines aren't necessarily words. They are so often words that are set up by a situation and/or a specific character saying those words.

                            Family Guy has taken multiple shots at Bill Cosby and/or the people who laugh at him - by saying (approximately), "What he just said isn't funny. He's just telling things that happen. Those aren't jokes!"

                            One of my favorite anecdotes about the writing of Seinfeld was how the writers spent a chunk of time trying to figure out which name-brand candy bar to use in an episode - based on which candy bar's name sounded the funniest. And yet, apart from that episode, I don't recall the name of that candy bar ever cracking people up.

                            Ugh.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Selling your jokes on the page

                              Thanks to everybody who's chimed in.

                              Honestly, a lot of the rewrite suggestions (which are just playing with the idea, I recognize) are a lot more sitcomy than I want this to be. That's one of the things I've noticed: to make sure the joke is visible on the page, you've got to make sure the setup is super clear, which lends to a sitcom style rhythm. (Not trying to dis sitcoms. I have tremendous respect for the writers who can deliver like that week after week. But I'm trying to do something different).

                              Nor do I think it's fair to describe this fully as a function of the "mediocrity" of the joke. (Not claiming this joke is particularly great, but I don't think its mechanics can be discussed absent context, and I left the context out to deliberately avoid getting sidetracked into some of that). Some of how I started thinking about some of this stuff came from seeing a production of "As You Like It" this summer, a play which I was familiar with, but found much funnier on stage than on the page. The same is true of some Neil Simon I've read. Funny on the page, but better up on its feet. Plays are so under-directed on the page compared to how we write screenplays, it's a challenge.

                              I don't know, off the top of my head, what the best approach is. It's going to have to be some stuff that I play with. It's interesting because when I've written thrillers or horror films or dramas, well, I think the thrills/horror/drama are obvious on the page. But comedy, maybe not always.

                              Thanks again to everyone who chimed in.

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