First 10 (or 1) page

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: First 10 (or 1) page

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    Oh, FFS. Lowell couldn't be any clearer. And he doesn't have to "believe," he knows.

    He knows because, in addition to being a feature writer and director, his credits include TV producer and showrunner which means he's one of those "industry people" you're rambling about who take a pile of scripts home when hiring writers for his shows.

    See: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0523094/
    I agree. Jeff couldn't have stated it more clearly.
    "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: First 10 (or 1) page

      Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
      I agree. Jeff couldn't have stated it more clearly.
      It amazes me he has the tenacity to return now and again. Other pros who posted here gave up.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: First 10 (or 1) page

        Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
        Let me put it in another way -- and if you don't want to answer it, that's fine. You're under no obligations to do so.

        Do you believe when industry people, i.e., agents, managers, producers, etc., who take a pile of scripts home for their weekend read, if he finds the first page to be lacking voice and be a boring read, will the majority put the script aside and move onto the next one?
        Though you asked Jeff directly, if I may, I will throw a response in based on what I've seen from people I've worked for and/or done myself over the years. If Jeff chooses to add to the thread, I'm sure he can add an even more informed answer.

        When one starts reading a script, it is pretty apparent from page 1 if the writer has a unique voice and to me, as much as anything, a command of writing. But even then, pretty much no one is going to stop on page 1, unless it is utter incoherent garbage. Even then, they will surely read a tiny more out of morbid curiosity, but that's surely it.

        I won't say this for everyone out there, since there are many different individual rules of thumb, but I think many will give a script up to around 25 pages or so on average, if it's decent to okay. Thus if it's not up to snuff, and along the lines of what Jeff noted, they could easily bail earlier.

        A TV director I once worked for had the rule of thumb of half +1 when reading a script from someone. If the script was 100 pages, he'd read to page 51. 110 pages, he'd read to page 56. And so on. If he wasn't drawn in by then, due to the writing and story, he would stop. He was also a good guy so I'm sure he frequently read more than he'd like but he stuck to his own guideline.

        Maybe if you interviewed or polled a bunch of reps you could get slightly more accurate numbers, but I'd tend to think they would bail by 15 to 20 pages in, if the (query) script was bad -- maybe even sooner. If it was decent, possibly closer to 30 pages or so. Okay to good, maybe 2/3s of the way -- thus, the writing in general was good, there are some decent lines of dialogue, some solid scenes, interesting plot "twists," etc.. Then if the script and its writer are very good to great, all the way through. But that is rare.

        Your mileage with them will vary, again, but that's most likely what you'd run into. They all have more than enough scripts, books, treatments, etc. to read and keep the busy. It's too much to use up your weekend reading something that just isn't working. I'm sure some are more strict and others are maybe a bit more lenient. (Again, everyone is a bit different so you just never know unless they flat out tell you.)

        And for whatever very little it is worth, if I take in a submission from a query outside of this site, I will try to read as much as I can to give it a chance, but as noted above, it's pretty easy to tell from the "get go" if the person knows what they are doing. If there are a half-dozen other scripts to read, then I probably won't read much more than about 30 pages if the story is weak, and they don't have a really good rewriting style. Might vary some depending on how clever the story sounded as to whether I'm curious enough to push through to the end or even close to it. (This doesn't apply to notes, feedback, etc. of course.)
        Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 05-27-2020, 02:04 PM.
        Will
        Done Deal Pro
        www.donedealpro.com

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: First 10 (or 1) page

          Originally posted by sc111 View Post

          Oh, FFS. Lowell couldn't be any clearer.
          Sorry, sc111, I'm confused on Jeff's position on OP's question.

          You say, Jeff's position is clear to you, so could you please clue me in: will the majority of industry professionals stop reading after page one if they find the voice lacking and the page boring?

          sc111, since you know what was Jeff's position on this, it ain't like I'm asking for you to put words in his mouth, because, after all, you said his position was clear to you. So, I'll appreciate it if you pass along this information to me, thanks.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: First 10 (or 1) page

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            It amazes me he has the tenacity to return now and again. Other pros who posted here gave up.
            I appreciate that. Thank you.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: First 10 (or 1) page

              Originally posted by Done Deal Pro View Post

              Maybe if you interviewed or polled a bunch of reps you could get slightly more accurate numbers, but I'd tend to think they would bail by 15 to 20 pages in, if the (query) script was bad -- maybe even sooner.
              But you don't believe as soon as page one.

              This is why I was confused with Jeff's position, because he said he agreed with sc111 and her position is: "It's entirely possible to lose a reader on page one."

              I mean, from my understanding what industry people have said, the majority give a script 10 pages, not one. And some industry people have said that because they could lose out on a great script with the standard 10 pages, they would give a screenplay up to the first act.

              They used A BEAUTIFUL MIND as an example of a soft, slow opening 10 pages.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                But you don't believe as soon as page one.
                No. That's a scene from a comedy. I've never heard anyone ever say that or do that.

                I don't want to put words in Jeff's mouth by any means, but entirely possible, doesn't mean they will or more importantly it happens regularly or even often. It's entirely possibly a meteor could hit our planet tomorrow, but not going to happen. What can and surely does happen is that by the end of page 1, they don't feel the writer is up to snuff and nothing is grabbing them so the might skim the next few pages or flip to the middle or end. That's possible. Small chance for surely many here, but technically it is possible. There is no law that says they can't. Just not something to overly focus on; though page 1 through 10 count for a great deal.

                I think what he meant and even what I was trying to note is that after/by the first page, the person reading is predisposed to the rest of the script in one form or another. Page 1 generally sets the tone for pretty much every script I have ever read and for many others as well; but it doesn't mean someone will throw the script into the proverbial fire place after one page. In the whole scheme of things, I'm sure so very few ever, ever, every stopped after page 1, it's not even measurable. But again, by the end of the first page and heading into page 2, etc. one has a pretty good idea in their mind of how good the writer is. That's all.

                For the ever so vast majority of script writers out there, don't think people will stop reading your script simply after page one. By page 10 you could start getting into trouble, but a page 1 stop, has got to be so rare it's not even worth thinking about. It'd again have to be so terrible, so offensive, so rotten, that someone just thought, dear God, life is too short.

                Also think of this way, have you stopped reading scripts after page 1? And if so how often?
                Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 05-27-2020, 02:41 PM.
                Will
                Done Deal Pro
                www.donedealpro.com

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                  I know in 3 pages whether or not a writer can write. In 10-20 pages if I like the script.

                  I was a reader so I read many scripts.
                  I read my friends scripts.
                  Scripts for Blue Cat screenplay contest once.
                  Scripts for people on this board.
                  Just scripts for fun.
                  My own terrible and good scripts.

                  You get it.

                  I usually read the whole thing because even reading bad scripts you can learn from. But most of the time it was my job or I'm helping a friend/writer out with notes.

                  But if you are a rep or producer or studio head and you have a stack of 10 scripts to read on Saturday you are looking for ways to say "not for me" ASAP.

                  I just read a script -- from a writer here -- and I read it all last night -- an idea I had little interest in going in -- and she got me. That's great writing. When you read a whole script you didn't even want to read. And that's how it works. When I was a reader they just hand you a pile. You don't choose.

                  And when I got a 163 page script and the title was annoying and the first page was an insert with a dumb quote-- I knew I was in trouble.

                  There was a script I loved so much, years later I remembered the agent on the cover page and was the first time talking to an agent. And I lead with I love that spec...

                  A good spec feels like you just saw that movie. There are movies I've seen that others haven't because they were just specs I read from friends.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                    Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                    ... the majority give a script 10 pages, not one. And some industry people have said that because they could lose out on a great script with the standard 10 pages, they would give a screenplay up to the first act.

                    They used A BEAUTIFUL MIND as an example of a soft, slow opening 10 pages.
                    I’m not a professional script reader, but whenever I read a screenplay, the writer can “lose” me on the first page for many reasons, but that doesn’t mean I’ll stop reading. The premise might have possibilities or the story could go better in another direction, or the structure isn’t optimum for the concept—all these are reasons for me to continue reading to see what is salvageable or to have a better impression of what the writer wants their screen story to become.

                    Reading more of, or even all of, the script—even if it didn’t “hook” me—means my notes will be better informed. In the scenario where it’s a yes or no answer, then you don’t receive notes; you receive a yes or no and you won’t ever know how far they read.

                    All that’s within your power to do is to write so well they want to read your script to the end.
                    Last edited by Clint Hill; 05-27-2020, 03:15 PM.
                    “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                      Originally posted by Done Deal Pro View Post

                      ... What might happen is that by the end of page 1, they don't feel the writer is up to snuff and nothing is grabbing them so the might skim the next few pages or flip to the middle or end. That's possible. ...

                      IMO, this qualifies as "losing a reader" as I had originally stated. If they're skimming and flipping to the middle or the end after reading page 1 -- the writer has lost them because the reader is no longer "reading" the script, no?
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                        Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                        But you don't believe as soon as page one.

                        This is why I was confused with Jeff's position, because he said he agreed with sc111 and her position is: "It's entirely possible to lose a reader on page one."

                        I mean, from my understanding what industry people have said, the majority give a script 10 pages, not one. And some industry people have said that because they could lose out on a great script with the standard 10 pages, they would give a screenplay up to the first act.

                        They used A BEAUTIFUL MIND as an example of a soft, slow opening 10 pages.
                        Have you read page one of A BEAUTIFUL MIND? It's gorgeous, compelling writing, both visually and through dialogue.

                        And when they say a soft opening, they're not talking about a "boring" opening.

                        Here is a link to the script. I recommend you read it for yourself and form your own opinions. This is mastery of craft. You know on page one you are in the hands of a master.

                        The first two pages build with a slow burn as we watch these men gossiping about a genius no one's heard of, when the winner (one of two) arrives and insults Nash, Nash delivers his own zinger, and just walks away...

                        As he leaves, one of the men says, that Nash, the man that just delivered the zinger, was the genius they were talking about.

                        It's fantastic, because right there on page three we have a big reveal, and an amazing character introduction. I was totally engrossed in it.

                        Please take a moment to read it for yourself...

                        https://www.scriptslug.com/assets/up...-mind-2001.pdf

                        Akiva Goldsman couldn't write a bad script if he tried.

                        You know what might be a great exercise? Is if we all read three pages of a pro script and discussed it and what worked so well about it.
                        "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                          IMO, this qualifies as "losing a reader" as I had originally stated. If they're skimming and flipping to the middle or the end after reading page 1 -- the writer has lost them because the reader is no longer "reading" the script, no?
                          Sure. Yes. You can start losing the reader right off the bat. I just felt and maybe I misunderstood what Joe was asking/taking away from it all, that he was possibly thinking people literally stopped reading another word after page 1, if they didn't like it. That I didn't feel was quite the way to think of it.

                          But sure, if they are skimming pages and flipping to different parts of the script, you are in trouble and have lost the reader. There is little to pretty much no chance of coming back from that.
                          Will
                          Done Deal Pro
                          www.donedealpro.com

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                            Originally posted by Done Deal Pro View Post
                            Sure. Yes. You can start losing the reader right off the bat. I just felt and maybe I misunderstood what Joe was asking, if people literally stopped reading another word after page 1, if they didn't like it. That I didn't feel was quite the way to think of it.

                            But sure, if they are skimming and flipping you are in trouble and have lost the reader. The odds of you somehow winning them back if they are doing that is less than 1% most likely.
                            I hear you, Will. Thanks.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                              Originally posted by Done Deal Pro View Post

                              I just felt and maybe I misunderstood what Joe was asking/taking away from it all, that people literally stopped reading another word after page 1, if they didn't like it.
                              You didn't misunderstood. This was the OP's question and what I got from sc111's response from this is that, yes, it's possible you will lose readers, but she since clarified that she meant, lose readers by skimming, or something like that.

                              Thank you, Will.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                                Originally posted by finalact4 View Post

                                Have you read page one of A BEAUTIFUL MIND? It's gorgeous, compelling writing, both visually and through dialogue.
                                Yes, I did read page 1 and I was bored. Nothing happened.

                                When an industry professional used A BEAUTIFUL MIND as an example of losing out on a great script with the first ten pages standard to judge a script, I read the script and saw his point. If that script was written by an unproven, non-pro writer, I believe there would have been some industry professionals who wouldn't have read past ten pages.

                                I know you disagree with that, finalact4, but that just my opinion.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X