First 10 (or 1) page

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  • #16
    Re: First 10 (or 1) page

    Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
    I think that the objectivity can come in the form of a delayed acceptance. It's like the stages of death, right? Not nearly as bad, so maybe a poor comparison, but that's what comes to mind. Stages.

    You're hit with the note, some are more direct, less concise, or even blunt. Its delivery doesn't matter, that's not the point, and even though blunt can sting a bit... what does matter, is the careful consideration of the note. Because the person who you trust to give you notes is doing so to HELP YOU. Don't take that for granted, and don't take it lightly.

    You have to step back and CAREFULLY consider the note.

    Read that again, because it's really important. (this for the noobs like me, not the writers that already know better )

    I don't give up. Not easily and not ever. I'm a pit bull with an old sock. And because of that, I am able to (sometimes e-ven-tu-ally) address that note to the point that I KNOW, really KNOW that my story is better because a writer I trust was honest with their opinion.

    Notes give us the opportunity to step up to the plate and swing for the fence. It makes us incrementally better, which makes it easier to spot the next time, until it eventually becomes ingrained and habitual.

    You may fight a note. But the important ones stick to you. They are the ones you KNOW are right. If even on a subconscious level. Maybe it's not articulated well, but you definitely realize something is amiss.

    I'm not talking about the ones you discard because you know they're not right for your story. But, rather the ones that stop you... those are the ones to take a long hard look at.

    I don't know what I'd do without the amazing writers that give me notes. Every one makes me a better writer. Every one helps me realize my vision.

    There's nothing like the moment when you say, "**** it," okay I'll show you and it turns out that THEY showed you... that's rewarding. That's progress. That's writer's growth.

    Okay, so I worked out, didn't eat and had a glass of wine. Not sure that makes sense. haha. I'm mean, what I wrote, not what I did.

    With all that gibberish said, my advice to those who truly want to excel at their craft... swallow your pride, grow thick skin, allow time for the sting to wear off, consider the note objectively, and then execute that note like a fukking beast!

    Stay safe,
    FA4
    I hear you. However what I had in mind when I made the comment was the ability to assess the quality of our writing before offering it up for notes. Before sending it to reps.

    If reps are dumping a script by the end of page one -- something's seriously missing in the writing. Yet the writer sent it off unable to discern what was missing.

    I think Jeff was right in pointing out it's the Dunning-Kruger effect.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • #17
      Re: First 10 (or 1) page

      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
      I hear you. However what I had in mind when I made the comment was the ability to assess the quality of our writing before offering it up for notes. Before sending it to reps.

      If reps are dumping a script by the end of page one -- something's seriously missing in the writing. Yet the writer sent it off unable to discern what was missing.

      I think Jeff was right in pointing out it's the Dunning-Kruger effect.
      Hmm... reminds me of American Idol try outs where some of the contestants really believe they can sing well.

      Or and entertaining example like, Drax, in Guardians of the Galaxy, where he's standing so still and believes he's invisible because he's moving so slowly...

      Is there anything that gets through that delusion where the subject becomes aware? Or does it persist? Doesn't seem so from the study. Kind of sad.
      "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: First 10 (or 1) page

        Originally posted by fallenangel View Post
        Ladies and Gents - When I first started writing in early 2000's, a common wisdom shared by writers was that if the first 10 pages of your script doesn't hook the reader, you are done. Readers, Agents had patience...

        Over last few years, I feel that the conventional wisdom has shifted. Significantly. With abundance of content now available, it almost feels like if the very first page of your script is not compelling (riveting, engaging, etc.) , you are toast.
        I agree that the goal posts have become much more narrow. Back in the 90s and early 2000s there were still plenty of prodcos who had studio deals and could afford readers primarily because home video propped up the financing side of low-mid sized budget features. Those prodcos could afford freelance readers who made their living, or supplemented it, by reading scripts and writing coverage. The 2007/2008 writers strike and the coming shift to streaming killed off many of those house-keeping deals and when they went away so did the demand for freelance readers. Producers and managers started relying on interns and assistants to read scripts and only wanted coverage for scripts that got a consider/recommend, and since the "readers" weren't being paid they had the discretion to stop reading when bored or annoyed. Back when I was reading I had to write up full coverage on every script, which meant I had to read the entire thing. So there were times when a weak opening gave way to something good, not often but it happened. Those days are gone. I was shocked to find out recently that readers today are getting the same or less than I was making per script back in the 90's.

        Yes, Angel, we gotta hook 'em early.
        Originally posted by fallenangel View Post
        Exactly my point! Personally, I give a Netflix show or a film 2-3 minutes. If there is a star actor, perhaps 7-8. If it comes highly recommended from a friend or a co-worker, 12-15 minutes.

        Over the past years, audiences and their appetite for instant gratification has shifted significantly. With a plethora of great content across various platforms, especially Streaming, audiences expectations have been elevated to a point where, you either hook me instantly (within first 2-3 minutes) or run a risk of losing me.
        Back in the 90s and early aughts we had four TV networks, movie theaters, and Blockbuster Video. We made our choice and we stuck with it because changing was too much hassle, except for TV, but you might have missed all the good setup of your second choice show if you change channels five minutes in. Today changing our minds is easy and there's no penalty other than the lost time of the rejected show or movie. Times have changed. Viewing has changed.
        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
        A good point and question. I have another question -- does the writer have the objectivity to see when our own pages are not even close to great?

        The inability to objectively assess the quality of our own work is a major handicap, on my opinion.
        Over the last ten years, or so, I've encountered many young writers who simply don't read screenplays. They watch movies, but the don't read the scripts. Reading scripts and analyzing them sharpens our ability to evaluate our own work, especially when we leave the script alone for about a month and work on other things, only to come back to it with fresh eyes. Most of us are in too big a hurry to get the script to reps in hopes of the big sale or deal. Another couple of months will only make it better.

        HTH,
        Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

        -Steve Trautmann
        3rd & Fairfax: The WGAW Podcast

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        • #19
          Re: First 10 (or 1) page

          A story that I feel relevant to this topic. The only time I got a rep to read any of my scripts (this is more of a me historically not bothering with querying thing), it was for this comedy feature about a washed up actor.

          This is one of those rare instances where I personally liked the script, and feedback from professional readers also praised the quality of the writing. There was only one problem.

          The first three pages were horrid. The opening sequence was a movie in a movie gag about the actor acting in a poorly written movie, so I intentionally wrote them so badly that I turned them into a trainwreck with ridiculous description and hackneyed dialogue. I apparently did too good of a job because the implication I received in their email was that they junked it at some point during those first few pages.

          If there's a lesson to be learned from this story, I think it would be, "Don't do that."
          Last edited by Prezzy; 05-26-2020, 11:26 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: First 10 (or 1) page

            Originally posted by fallenangel View Post

            it almost feels like if the very first page of your script is not compelling (riveting, engaging, etc.), you are toast.

            Does anyone else feel this way?
            No.

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            • #21
              Re: First 10 (or 1) page

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
              Agree with sc111.

              I think you have to show voice on page one, and an interesting story by page 10.
              Jeff, the OP's point is that you could be "toast" with a reader because of a perceived lacking page 1, which I take it to mean a reader, who isn't paid to read, will deem it a waste of his time and energy to read any further.

              Is that what you're agreeing to?

              Or, are saying if there isn't a demonstration of "voice" on page one, the reader will lack confidence that this will be a good read, but he'll give it another 10 pages to demonstrate it will be?

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              • #22
                Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                The Dunning-Kruger effect.

                My advice used to be that if an amateur writer isn't getting some kind of real external validation (wins/finalists in meaningful contests, offers of representation), then have a plan B.

                Now my advice is have a plan B.

                Actually, my advice is if someone would be happy doing anything but screenwriting, they should do it, because it's a rough field.
                William Goldman wrote that after about three scripts an aspiring screenwriter isn't going to get much better. Do you agree with that?

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                • #23
                  Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                  Why is no one asking me questions???? I'm right here.


                  Just make all the pages great.
                  Just make all your scripts great.


                  Answered. Solved. Pay me.

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                  • #24
                    Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                    Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                    Jeff, the OP's point is that you could be "toast" with a reader because of a perceived lacking page 1, which I take it to mean a reader, who isn't paid to read, will deem it a waste of his time and energy to read any further.

                    Is that what you're agreeing to?

                    Or, are saying if there isn't a demonstration of "voice" on page one, the reader will lack confidence that this will be a good read, but he'll give it another 10 pages to demonstrate it will be?
                    Neither. I'm saying that an industry pro has a pretty good idea if a writer has an interesting voice after the first page. But even a script with a great voice better be a compelling read - character and/or story-wise - by page 10.

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                    • #25
                      Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                      Neither. I'm saying that an industry pro has a pretty good idea if a writer has an interesting voice after the first page. But even a script with a great voice better be a compelling read - character and/or story-wise - by page 10.
                      Let me put it in another way -- and if you don't want to answer it, that's fine. You're under no obligations to do so.

                      Do you believe when industry people, i.e., agents, managers, producers, etc., who take a pile of scripts home for their weekend read, if he finds the first page to be lacking voice and be a boring read, will the majority put the script aside and move onto the next one?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                        Originally posted by DDoc View Post

                        William Goldman wrote that after about three scripts an aspiring screenwriter isn't going to get much better. Do you agree with that?
                        God, I hope not.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                          Originally posted by Bono View Post
                          Why is no one asking me questions???? I'm right here.


                          Just make all the pages great.
                          Just make all your scripts great.


                          Answered. Solved. Pay me.
                          Ah, excellent then. From now on all my pages will be great. Nay, every word. Every letter even?


                          Anyway, I'm just curious when writers usually reach a plateau based on natural ability. I get that there's always more to learn and that some stories will be better received than others based on concept alone.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                            Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                            God, I hope not.
                            Yeah. I just finished my third and I still suck so I guess I should follow Mark Twain's advice and start chopping wood.

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                            • #29
                              Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                              Anyway, I'm just curious when writers usually reach a plateau based on natural ability.
                              What William Goldman said. Seriously.

                              Been trying to write compelling material for past 15 years. At this point in my life I am convinced, when it comes to art, either it's in you or it isn't. One cannot learn talent.

                              But to stop trying, it doesn't feel right...

                              my 2 cents.
                              --fallen

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: First 10 (or 1) page

                                Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                                Let me put it in another way -- and if you don't want to answer it, that's fine. You're under no obligations to do so.

                                Do you believe when industry people, i.e., agents, managers, producers, etc., who take a pile of scripts home for their weekend read, if he finds the first page to be lacking voice and be a boring read, will the majority put the script aside and move onto the next one?
                                Oh, FFS. Lowell couldn't be any clearer. And he doesn't have to "believe," he knows.

                                He knows because, in addition to being a feature writer and director, his credits include TV producer and showrunner which means he's one of those "industry people" you're rambling about who take a pile of scripts home when hiring writers for his shows.

                                See: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0523094/
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                                Comment

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