Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

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  • Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

    I have a tendency to put oh, yeah, um at the beginning of some dialogue lines. Should I leave them out or keep them? For some reason in my mind it seems more natural.

  • #2
    Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

    You have to rememeber that it's not about being natural, for you, but for your characters. With that said, I don't see anything wrong with a character that uses: yeah, um, ahem, wow, holy moley, etc. Just as long as it's not done to ad nauseam:



    KWV

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    • #3
      Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

      It should always sound natural, that's all that matters. If it would be natural for someone to stutter or be unsure, or be a person of few words, then you use them. There's no rule nor one size fits all, it's all just about sounding realistic and keeping each characters' voice intact, whatever that may be.

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      • #4
        Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

        By and large, these should be taken out. They should be used VERY sparingly.

        They're one of those things that may feel "real" but tend to play really poorly onscreen. It's very, very hard for an actor to pull them off and not have them feel plastic. They tend to suck up the energy of the line, and result in a duplicate beat for the actor.

        I may not be doing a great job of describing this. It's one of those things, that once you've seen how it's a problem, it's really easy to understand. But it's hard to explain without an example in front of you. If you know actors, you might have some fun doing a scene with them, including those tidbits, and then cut it out and notice how much better the scene flows. Although that may not be enough since it's even more obvious onscreen.

        The major exception would be, in my opinion, when the the "um" or whatever constitutes an entirely different beat from the rest of the line.

        e.g.

        Bad:
        JOE
        Um ... I'm not sure.

        Better:
        JOE
        Um ... this way!

        But even then it's often kind of clunky. In my experience, a scene is going to work better if you let the character have his epiphany moment at the beginning of his line, rather than pushing it back like that, although, of course, there are exceptions.

        Generally I think that most writers figure out that this sort of thing doesn't work once they've had their work up on its feet a few times, but YMMV.

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        • #5
          Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

          Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
          By and large, these should be taken out. They should be used VERY sparingly.
          It should be used as much as needed, which may or may not be sparing. We're writing characters, not to cater to an actor who isn't attached to the project yet. Properly trained actors can and will pull these things off with little effort if trained correctly. And speaking from experience, acting majors don't last if they can't pull it off; most professional level programs will boot them right and proper. I studied writing for the screen and stage, and the acting majors I know were in training and rehearsals from morning to night. Many couldn't cut it and got booted. The ones who stayed were the ones who learned to master their craft. As a writer, I cannot and will not limit a character just in case the actor doesn't get it. Frankly put, casting is not my problem unless I'm directing the work I write. The "um" stuff, it's like starting and stopping a thought and changing to a new thought in dialogue. Do what feels natural to the character.

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          • #6
            Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

            Originally posted by Nexus9 View Post
            It should be used as much as needed, which may or may not be sparing. We're writing characters, not to cater to an actor who isn't attached to the project yet. Properly trained actors can and will pull these things off with little effort if trained correctly. And speaking from experience, acting majors don't last if they can't pull it off; most professional level programs will boot them right and proper. I studied writing for the screen and stage, and the acting majors I know were in training and rehearsals from morning to night. Many couldn't cut it and got booted. The ones who stayed were the ones who learned to master their craft. As a writer, I cannot and will not limit a character just in case the actor doesn't get it. Frankly put, casting is not my problem unless I'm directing the work I write. The "um" stuff, it's like starting and stopping a thought and changing to a new thought in dialogue. Do what feels natural to the character.
            Quite frankly, I think you're being self-destructive here.

            You say you're writing characters, and I say there's a difference between real dialog and real screen dialog. ANd this is one of those places.

            The notion that "properly trained actors" can pull it off is, sadly, sort of moot. It's moot for a couple of reasons:

            First, you have no idea how your project is going to be cast. Yes, in an ideal world you would get "properly trained actors" who can "cut it." In reality? On many projects, the casting decisions - particularly for the leads - will have nothing to do with acting ability. On a project I'm involved with, we had a meeting to discuss casting, and we went through the leads who might be available, to decide who to go to first. And every creative involved in the project - me, the producer, the director, the development exec - agreed on who would be right for the project, in order. And then the money people weighed in, and we went to the person at the bottom of our list. This is the reality.

            Second, why make life hard for your actors if you don't have to? Again, I'd simply encourage people who have actor friends to write a scene with a bunch of these in it, and have your actor friends do it. And then have them do it without them. And see what happens. I willing to bet that actors - of any skill level, do a much better job with the tighter dialog. But by all means, don't take my word for it. Go try it.

            In fact, I'd go so far as saying that part of what your "properly trained actors" will do, applying their training, is NOT read the "ums" and "ahs" that start sentences. Because they know, from experience and training, that they're often killers. You may have to browbeat them to get them to read them.

            Again, please, don't take my work for it. Give it a try.

            And, heck, why not shoot your actor friends. And then get a competent editor to cut it for you, and notice how often he cuts them out. Mealy-mouthed-ness plays badly on screen.

            Third, you need to understand how this plays, which is, usually, badly. It often creates a double-beat which is almost impossible for an actor to play, and invite poor acting choices. There are times you need to make your writing actor-proof, because maybe the actor is only there for half a day and, quite frankly, the director can't be bothered. (Never be surprised when a Hollywood director is largely ignorant of the craft of acting).

            Time and time again in Hollywood (and I'm talking about working with production companies who's films you have at least heard of, if not seen) I've run into a problem which I jokingly call "the presumption of competence." That is, the assumption that the people you're working with know what they're doing, which surprisingly often turns out not to be the case.

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            • #7
              Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

              It is a little-known fact that um, uh, and hmm in screenplays is a violation of section 10.3 of the California penal code.



              Of course you can use them - when you really need them. Just don't overdo it.

              "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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              • #8
                Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                Originally posted by ComicBent View Post
                It is a little-known fact that um, uh, and hmm in screenplays is a violation of section 10.3 of the California penal code.



                Of course you can use them - when you really need them. Just don't overdo it.
                And then there's Mmm-hmm, Hmmph, etc. And several months ago there was a thread about how to write the sound for "sniffing", sarcastically or whatever.

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                • #9
                  Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                  In addition to everything that Ronaldinho says, I don't like using them because I tend to associate these speech pattern pauses as passivity. I want reluctant protagonists, not passive ones.

                  So if I use Oh and Um, I better have a damn good reason for that other than sounding "natural."

                  As far as "Yeah," I use that quite often I think. I never bothered to check.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                    Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                    Quite frankly, I think you're being self-destructive here.
                    I'm not arrogant or think more of my writing than what it is, but the two things I'm often most praised for are writing dialogue and screen direction. Why? Because I'm not writing for the actor; I'm writing a spec that needs to sell itself without an actor attached. So if my character speaks like that, I write them like that. I don't question it and it works for me. Call it destructive if you like, but when I sit down to right, it's MY vision first. Change comes when OTHERS step in and join the creative process.

                    You say you're writing characters, and I say there's a difference between real dialog and real screen dialog. ANd this is one of those places.
                    I didn't say write real dialogue; I said write dialogue that fits the personality of the character. There is a difference here.

                    The notion that "properly trained actors" can pull it off is, sadly, sort of moot. It's moot for a couple of reasons:
                    I'm saying that I'm not going to write my scripts for the lowest common denominator of an actor. I write my characters and let it all evolve as it goes down the line. But while my characters are still mine, then they are who they are until someone says otherwise. If I really care about my characters and story, then they are mine to protect as I see fit.

                    First, you have no idea how your project is going to be cast.
                    Which is why I'm not going to write it like I do. That's why I write my characters as they are. If I dumb them down just in case a crappy actor gets cast, then I AM writing as though I know how it's going to be cast: sh*tty. I'll be assuming I'm going to get sh*tty actors. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. Until that's decided, the characters speak for themselves.

                    Yes, in an ideal world you would get "properly trained actors" who can "cut it." In reality? On many projects, the casting decisions - particularly for the leads - will have nothing to do with acting ability.
                    I can't care about that. If the director feels he or she needs to change something for the actor's ability, then they'll change it.

                    Second, why make life hard for your actors if you don't have to?
                    You know, some actors really do like the challenge.

                    Again, I'd simply encourage people who have actor friends to write a scene with a bunch of these in it, and have your actor friends do it.
                    Been there, done that, got a stack of tee-shirts in the corner for sale.

                    And then have them do it without them.
                    Arbitrary. If an actor struggles with the reading or it sounds wrong to my ear when I hear it, I know enough to change it rather than force it. Sometimes things change, and sometimes nothing changes.

                    And see what happens. I willing to bet that actors - of any skill level, do a much better job with the tighter dialog.
                    You would be wrong and lose the bet. It's not about the "um" or "ah" at all; it's simply about how they are used. And if it works it works.

                    But by all means, don't take my word for it. Go try it.
                    Been there, done that... oh wait, I already said that. Redundancy. Yes, I am trying to keep the mood light here. And I'm also sort of giving you an example of how I treat character dialogue. Don't get some notion that I sit down, listen to people, and try to write just like how people talk. No. I write how my characters talk. Like:

                    MARIE
                    Don't make me crack you upside the
                    head, sweet cheeks. You better be
                    getting down off that boy's case
                    before sugar here smacks you down.


                    It's not a bunch of "ums" and "ahs" at all. No. I only use them when a character WOULD say it. You're talking about this from a production standpoint. I'm talking about this from a writer's standpoint, a writer who is sitting down to write characters in a script to get a read. For that, the character has to live without an actor's face attached it.

                    In fact, I'd go so far as saying that part of what your "properly trained actors" will do, applying their training, is NOT read the "ums" and "ahs" that start sentences.
                    You would be wrong again. Sure, they'll take creative liberties, which I fully welcome, but they will try to hit the beats you're giving them as a writer.

                    Because they know, from experience and training, that they're often killers. You may have to browbeat them to get them to read them.
                    Wrong again. I've worked with just friends and the acting quality may not be great, but it's fun. I've also worked with trained actors. You have no idea how much a trained actor will put into working with the text. They are trained to respect the text. They are also trained to work with the writer and offer feedback to tighten things in the writing. And it's wonderful when that comes together.

                    Again, please, don't take my work for it. Give it a try.
                    And again, I have already done so. On many occasions. So your argument is falling flat because I have done all this and have experienced a very different scenario from what you're describing.

                    And, heck, why not shoot your actor friends. And then get a competent editor to cut it for you, and notice how often he cuts them out. Mealy-mouthed-ness plays badly on screen.
                    I also video edit. Final Cut Pro and Adobe Premiere. I've cut the "ums" and "ahs" before. I've left them in also. It's about what works for the the scene and the character.

                    Third, you need to understand how this plays, which is, usually, badly.
                    If that's how you feel then that's how you feel, but I've had very good experiences with it.

                    There are times you need to make your writing actor-proof, because maybe the actor is only there for half a day and, quite frankly, the director can't be bothered.
                    You do realize that I'm taking about spec drafts, right? BEFORE actors are involved. When we have to paint characters on the page for the READER.

                    Time and time again in Hollywood (and I'm talking about working with production companies who's films you have at least heard of, if not seen) I've run into a problem which I jokingly call "the presumption of competence." That is, the assumption that the people you're working with know what they're doing, which surprisingly often turns out not to be the case.
                    And I'm saying that this is not my problem when I'm writing my specs.
                    Last edited by Nexus9; 10-29-2010, 05:41 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                      Originally posted by dvigilante1 View Post
                      I have a tendency to put oh, yeah, um at the beginning of some dialogue lines. Should I leave them out or keep them? For some reason in my mind it seems more natural.
                      A little goes a *long ways*, and remember that every character is an individual - so if you have one character have some, you know, phrase they use occasionally in dialogue don't have some other character use the same phrase. You want all of your characters to sound different.

                      Another thing to consider is that we are not writing documentaries, we don't want *real* dialogue, we want dialogue that is concise and to the point that appears to be realistic.

                      - Bill
                      Free Script Tips:
                      http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                      • #12
                        Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                        Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                        A little goes a *long ways*, and remember that every character is an individual - so if you have one character have some, you know, phrase they use occasionally in dialogue don't have some other character use the same phrase. You want all of your characters to sound different.

                        Another thing to consider is that we are not writing documentaries, we don't want *real* dialogue, we want dialogue that is concise and to the point that appears to be realistic.

                        - Bill
                        IMHO, you have the best advice going on screenwriting and on this board. We need more Bill Martells!

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                        • #13
                          Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                          I had a colleague in India that began almost every response to a question with a "hmmmm" and a little wiggle of a finger. after a couple years I found out that he was "putting together" his response in his best english, and didn't want you to bombard him with another english language challenge.

                          Many many years ago I quit using "ya know" when I was explaining something to someone that "didn't know" wtf I was talking about.

                          However, I have a sister that cannot get through a sentence without: "hmmmmm, ya know". Whaddyado, nod your head and let her keep talking

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                          • #14
                            Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                            Originally posted by Nexus9 View Post

                            MARIE
                            Don't make me crack you upside the
                            head, sweet cheeks. You better be
                            getting down off that boy's case
                            before sugar here smacks you down.


                            It's not a bunch of "ums" and "ahs" at all.
                            If this is the sort of example you're talking about, it makes me wonder why you think what you're talking about is relevant to the original poster's question.

                            Which, in case you don't want to scroll back a page and look it up, was this:

                            I have a tendency to put oh, yeah, um at the beginning of some dialogue lines. Should I leave them out or keep them? For some reason in my mind it seems more natural.
                            He is clearly not talking about a carefully-chosen choice about a single character's voice. He's talking about a "tendency" trying to make things feel "natural."

                            Which, again, makes me think that you're fundamentally talking about a very different situation than the one he's asking about.

                            And beyond that, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Oh, Yeah, Um - Ok to use them?

                              Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                              If this is the sort of example you're talking about, it makes me wonder why you think what you're talking about is relevant to the original poster's question.

                              Which, in case you don't want to scroll back a page and look it up, was this:



                              He is clearly not talking about a carefully-chosen choice about a single character's voice. He's talking about a "tendency" trying to make things feel "natural."

                              Which, again, makes me think that you're fundamentally talking about a very different situation than the one he's asking about.

                              And beyond that, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
                              I know what the original poster is saying, and, yeah, it is something to watch out for. At the same time, however, I don't want the original poster to think that there is some kind of "rule" against using "natural" speech when a character's personality may call for it. Writing is limitless. In the end there is a structure, but it's about playing with things and molding a personal style that fits within that structure. Break the rules yet know them. Because there may be a structure, but a lot of different voices can fall into that structure and work in different ways.

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