Questions to ponder about why you're doing this...

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  • #61
    Re: Business sense

    I'm not even sure this thread is about the same thing as when it began, but here goes.

    There's something I've said to people when they've brought up the issues along the lines of what is being discussed here: You can have a sale, or you can have a career. The former does not guarantee the latter.

    What that means to me, and from my own personal experience, is that 'making it' in this business is as much a function of mindset as it is talent. If you approach this business thinking of a 'sale' as the ticket to breaking in, I'm not sure you have what it takes to make it in the long run. If you approach it asking yourself if what you are putting on the page is something that will impact people so they remember you, not the material, then you may have what it takes.

    Your words matter, but only for a transitory moment while they are being digested. What lasts is people's belief that you can summon whatever magic you posess for the next project.

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    • #62
      Re: In defense of pragmatism...

      Writing your heart or writing what moves you or however one wants to put it... I don't think that means writing a rambling, unstructured script where nothing much happens to a bunch of one-dimensional characters whom we couldn't care less about. That may be cathartic, yes, but it belongs in the desk drawer.

      If one's ultimate goal is to make oneself heard, then that means writing something that will interest not only you but also the people you want to hear you. I see absolutely no reason why one can't be passionately interested in what H'wood chooses to call a high-concept premise, and by that I mean one with a hook, with dramatic irony, one that makes other people go, "Wow, I've gotta read that when you finish" or "Wow, I wish I'd thought of that" or even "Wow, I'm sooo stealing that!" As far as I'm concerned, high concept is just the industry's way of saying "interesting to other people."

      Of course, I'm not a pro, so take that however you will. But I do think the creative vs. commercial debate can be misleading. If you have something to say, you can say it in a way that will interest other people as well as yourself, and if you do, then with a modicum of luck and perseverance you will get noticed and may eventually get paid for it.

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      • #63
        Sense of entitlement

        I'm not entitled to success as a screenwriter but I am entitled to be true to my own heart.

        Since we're all here for a limited engagement, I'd say money is not the only determinant for our creative work.

        When I see the demeaning dismissal of those who write from the heart as "hobbyists" instead of "real professionals," I have to laugh.

        Many of the most lasting works mankind has ever created were born of personal passion without regard to payoff.

        Yes, those of us who don't write purely to chase the market for a quick payoff are not in the same league as many journeyman Hollywood screenwriters....

        Thank God!

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        • #64
          on writing

          Well said, greyghost.

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          • #65
            Re: In defense of pragmatism...

            thank you greyghost for saying in one sentence what I was trying to say in about nine paragraphs.

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            • #66
              Re: Sense of entitlement

              Weird. I always think of a hobbyist(/tourist) as someone who tries to chase the big spec sale and a "real professional" as someone who writes from the heart.

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              • #67
                Re: Sense of entitlement

                For me. "real professional" is the one who actually gets paid for this @#%$.

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                • #68
                  Re: Sense of entitlement

                  Eventually, yes.

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                  • #69
                    Initially, I wanted to be the next Matt and Ben. But during the process of becoming a more serious writer, I wanted to tell stories about my characters who have become my children, my friends, my whatever.

                    Unlike most others here, I have also made a huge financial investment to pursue this ($60K for a token MFA degree from a reputable film program). So I can't be all noble and say that this is a passionate pursuit regardless of money. I want to make it as a writer because I enjoy writing. But I also want to make it as a successful writer because I want to take care of myself and my family.

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                    • #70
                      I guess I don't understand the debate of writing from your heart and writing for a sale, because I think its entirely possible to do both.

                      I want to write movies. That means the stories that excite me enough to sit down and write fade in are the movies I'd pay $8 to see and then $20 to own. My theory is that you are your own first audience so you have to entertain yourself first. I don't think this is a selfish outlook - I think if you don't throw your heart into what you write it will show on every single page you churn out.

                      Some of us have more commercial taste than others, but there is an audience for every type of movie. So to thine own self be true. Work on writing a great story and the sale will take care of itself.

                      Yes, I want to make money at this. Why? Because that way I won't have to worry about doing a 9-5 which will take me away from what I really want to do, and that's write full time. Would I like to make a lot of money doing this? Well, duh. It's tough to have caviar taste on a Hamburger Helper budget. :b

                      But that doesn't mean I went into this chasing money. I went into this chasing stories and that's where I continue to thrive. If the money comes, it will be incidental to the sheer joy I get from the creative process.

                      I can't think of anything else I'd rather do. Ever.

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                      • #71
                        .....

                        I don't know why, but parts of this thread kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth -- it feels like some people telling the beginners here 'you can't ask questions we think are dumb'. Maybe not a totally accurate perception, I'll admit, but it's how a lot of it reads.

                        Geevie
                        You absolutely can do both. Don't let anyone here or anywhere else tell you different. YOu can write with passion and commercially. Is anyone here really debating that though? I think some people are just pointing out that a lot of people (in general) seem to think there is a magic formula to a sale. And there isn't.

                        TonyRob
                        Since you asked (I think):
                        I write because I love to write - it's as simple as that. Reality is, I may never sell anything, though I believe I will and that's a goal of mine, in the hopes that I can write for a living and support my family, or at least help with the bills. As someone else stated, what more could you ask for than to be paid to do what you love and yearn to do?

                        But sale or not - I'll always write.

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                        • #72
                          Re: .....

                          Hmmm. It seems like the phrase, 'writing from the heart,' has become code for: NON-commercial script. I don't think that's accurate. Many 'written from the heart' films have become
                          commercially successful.

                          Also, the idea that one can 'chase the market' is inaccurate
                          because (1) the market, in any business arena, doesn't usually know exactly what it wants until it SEES it and (2) any film optioned today will probably not be in the can for another two-plus years (or more) and by then the 'market' has a new mindset.

                          A good example, The Unforgiven - - the script was turned down at first because, according to HW execs, the "market" (i.e. we, the unwashed film-going masses) didn't like westerns anymore. But Clint Eastwood made it anyway and, surprise, the market liked it. Suddenly studios made westerns again.

                          As a result, a more accurate phrase for the spec writer would be: 'Chase the producers and studio execs,' because they are your first 'market' when writing an original screenply, no? And sometimes, heck, let's say often, these guys can't accurately predict what what the end-user market (filmgoer) wants any more than we can.

                          So we're back to square one and I say write all scripts from the heart. If you're a good writer, you can write a high-concept script with a commercial hook from your heart, too.

                          And you should. Because, what if your non-commercial script landed you an assignment that had a commercial hook? What then-- would you schlock it together because it wasn't a highly personal story? No. You would do your best, from the heart. Because you would want more assignments.

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                          • #73
                            Chasing the big spec sale = amateur/writing for hobby?

                            I couldn't disagree with you more. Okay, yeah, writing "the big spec sale" appears to be a lotto mentality. But I don't think you're an ameteur because you'd like to see your imagined people and plots made into a film...vs. gaining a writing assignment for a producer's vision - or worse: re-writing your fellow scribes, who did nothing to deserve that.

                            What a funny business we knowingly venture into, where the writer isn't sole authority on the world she created - she is routinely removed from her own project because the powers-that-be have decided she "isn't right for" her own project. In theatre, they have to check with the playwright before changing lines. Book authors are free to dismiss banal editing notes (not always, and maybe not first-timers, but you're the sole author listed and don't need a guild to determine writing credits) - and you don't have other people mucking up your work. Newspaper and magazine columnists and article writers have a lot more carte blanche. So why would we do this, you ask?

                            $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$

                            I don't think it's a sign of an amateur to want to be paid a hell of a lot of money for your first sale, especially if we are so disrespected within the industry. If I optioned a spec script (or was given a writing assignment), then and only then could I afford to move to the West Coast. None of the other above careers would pay me enough to move to where their "action" and my new career is. None of them.

                            That's only part of it, for me, anyway. I don't "think up" dialogue...I see it, hear it. When I'm really cooking, I merely take dictation from my characters in any given scene. And, ultimately, I'd like to direct my work. My "fantasy Hollywood career" has me - not re-writing my friends; not pitching all over town, begging for any assignment - but, rather, writing and selling maybe one spec every couple of years or so and being permitted to direct it. So to me, spec work isn't just about the money to continue my career, but it's also about writing and making the kind of movies I'd like to. (I do realize that more than likely, that won't be it. But the $ I make re-writing and writing other people's visions would likely afford a much better living than I would make on any of the other writing scenarios.)

                            Finally, for every example of a hugely successful screenwriter/director who went to film school and studied for *years-and-years* to perfect his/her craft, there might be nearly as many individuals who wrote scripts on a lark, because they just decided to try it and became...successful. With multiple movies made of their work! Or maybe they self-taught themselves screenwriting and wrote one spec that, through connections, it sold. It happens. No, it's not the norm. But it happens.

                            Some of you have hit on why writers write - the passion, the "need" to write, even if you don't get paid for it.

                            I would just rather write for a living than the other "living" jobs I tend to have, which aren't pleasurable. And, honestly, novel writing might be as much - or more fun - as screenwriting. But not nearly as lucrative. And it wouldn't allow me to direct my own work. So my dream's two-pronged.

                            Basically, I just bristle at the notion that wanting to sell a spec and make exceptional money long-term (not short term, one $1 million sale) would prohibit someone from having the talent and the fortitude to make it, simply because they have financial goals in mind.

                            And these questions? I asked a rather "dumb" one a couple days ago about when to CAP. I've got all the books, believe me. I read and re-read them. But things change and certain things go into and out of style rapidly. I learned about an extra space that's now appearing "in vogue" currently from posts right here. So, if nothing else, until some brand new screenwriting book comes out, this is the place to ask things.

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                            • #74
                              Thanks!

                              For the record, these are the answers I was looking for when I posted my original question. Maybe it wasn't such a dumb question after all...

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                              • #75
                                Re: Thanks!

                                You see how I got your back, bottomlesscup? You see?

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