Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

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  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

    Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
    I post today asking for a bit of help.

    As I've mentioned a few times in this thread, we're going to be marking the end of our first month with a bit of a data blast, which begs a question: what info would you like to know about Black List #s?

    Obviously we're not going to be able to deliver everything you ask for, both because of privacy and logistical concerns, but I think you all realize at this point that we'll do our best.

    So, what would you like to know?
    Thanks for encouraging questions on the data blast, Franklin.

    Will you be posting any kind of inter-rater agreement statistics?

    Comment


    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

      Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
      I post today asking for a bit of help.

      As I've mentioned a few times in this thread, we're going to be marking the end of our first month with a bit of a data blast, which begs a question: what info would you like to know about Black List #s?

      Obviously we're not going to be able to deliver everything you ask for, both because of privacy and logistical concerns, but I think you all realize at this point that we'll do our best.

      So, what would you like to know?
      I'd like to know more about the industry players. Who are they exactly? Are the top agencies represented? The top production companies? The studios? And if so, could you provide numbers on how many scripts they've downloaded and/or ranked?

      Or - If this cannot be provided - can a writer at least know who's been downloading their work? I believe right now it's set up to show how many downloads... It would be a lot more beneficial to a writer to know *exactly* who is reading their work.

      Comment


      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

        Franklin

        Thanks for setting up this community/website, being a hard working indie writer, I'm a big fan of the concept and potential opportunities it brings.

        I joined the blacklist about four weeks ago and immediately payed for a professional review to make sure my work received some kind of rating to hopefully get the ball rolling.

        I received my review this morning which had some good comments, some fair remarks encouraging prospects and a score of 5.0 - which is ok.

        Then I checked the marks which were 7, 4, 5 and 6 - the 4 stung a fair bit for a plot score (as this is the 14th draft and I've spent more on coverage and contests then I did my last car).

        So I read the remarks and a few questions asked where clearly explained in the story with one question not happening at all in the plot i.e. why did one character try to kill the hero - he didn't he killed himself??? I know some question can sometimes not be clearly answered - but out of the four questions asked in the feedback 2 are and one never even happened in the story. I gave the impression the script might have been "skimmed" over rather than read - which could be a result of the workload of scripts on the site.

        This is not a complaint by any means as I've been writing screenplays for ten years now and it's not my style.

        I was just wondering can a member get a second opinion without paying if they feel the reader "got in wrong"?

        And why with a score of 7, 4 (ouch), 5 and 6 would the average not be 5.5 rather than 5?

        Sean
        Writing bio: http://seanryanmovies.blogspot.ie/2012/09/my-bio.html

        Comment


        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

          Originally posted by seanryan View Post
          Franklin



          I gave the impression the script might have been "skimmed" over rather than read - which could be a result of the workload of scripts on the site.


          Sean
          I'm hearing this more and more: BL readers are obviously skimming, or just plain not focused on what they're reading (lack of reading comprehension/focus seems to a be problem everywhere, I'm afraid) , and then the readers post mis-information in the comments.

          Even if a script receives all high scores, there's no excuse for posting incorrect plot details.
          "Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to their limitations again." -[/SIZE] James R. Cook

          Comment


          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

            Originally posted by JoJo View Post
            I'm hearing this more and more: BL readers are obviously skimming, or just plain not focused on what they're reading (lack of reading comprehension/focus seems to a be problem everywhere, I'm afraid) , and then the readers post mis-information in the comments.

            Even if a script receives all high scores, there's no excuse for posting incorrect plot details.
            If this appears to be the case then email them. Franklin and his team are very responsive.

            Comment


            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

              I entered another contest (which will remain unnamed) with a short script a few years back and the reviewer commented they were fed up reading scripts where psychiatrists killed their patients as it was cliche. It was bad enough to get a poor review without getting slapped in the face with the word cliche.

              My script was about a teacher going to a psychiatrist after a student she was having an affair with killed himself and she was afraid she was seeing things as he was appearing to her. He came back because of a curse and killed her and the final frame showed the psychiatrist was now cursed and being followed by the now dead patient. Nowhere did the psychiatrist even hint at killing her. The script had not been read it had been skimmed over. This also was a paid contest and the prospect of possible script skimming in contests terrifies me, because you put a lot of work in, pay good money and then a subjective review doesn't even go against you, you lose because of no real read at all. I does happen and is always obvious when incorrect plot comments are made in a review.

              I complained and they apologized for making the mistake, I never entered their contest again.

              I review scripts for people and supply coverage when asked. I never skim a script as it is the ultimate failure of a reader. When scores and reviews are the difference between life and death in this business, it can be damaging.
              Writing bio: http://seanryanmovies.blogspot.ie/2012/09/my-bio.html

              Comment


              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                I just want to comment on the nature of readers "skimming" when reviewing scripts. Whether submitting to BL, contests, managers, development services, etc., the one thing I consistently notice about the notes I receive is that the stronger the writing in the screenplay, the more carefully it seems to have been read. Conversely, with my scripts that are clearly not as strong, I often find a disconnection between my intentions and the reader's interpretation.

                Basically, if you're boring the reader, his/her job just became that much harder, and that person's review will often reflect a sense of distance from the writing.

                As always, though, you could just be a victim of subjectivity. But since BL seems to be primarily interested in marketing great screenplays, rather than improving those that need work, it stands to reason that anything that seemingly got "skimmed" was a result of a lack of connection with the material and can't necessarily be attributed to a large workload.

                Comment


                • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                  The contest example was for a short 7 page script. If the reader loses interest or engagement in 7 pages, they shouldn't be reading at all. The same script has since been sold for a short production in LA. To be honest if they make plot review mistakes, I am being kind to say they skimmed, because they may not have even bothered to read. Just took the money and ran.

                  I have read some really, really bad scripts and do I skim over to get through them? Hell no. If someone went to the trouble to write and rewrite they deserve my attention for the short time it takes to read. Even if my review slates their work, and is subjective, it will be accurate.

                  Getting a inaccurate review can't be blamed on poor writing. As a writer and a reader I don't agree with that. You will skim a brilliant piece of written work if you don't allow yourself to read it and will miss the point.
                  Writing bio: http://seanryanmovies.blogspot.ie/2012/09/my-bio.html

                  Comment


                  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                    Originally posted by GhostWhite View Post
                    I just want to comment on the nature of readers "skimming" when reviewing scripts. Whether submitting to BL, contests, managers, development services, etc., the one thing I consistently notice about the notes I receive is that the stronger the writing in the screenplay, the more carefully it seems to have been read. Conversely, with my scripts that are clearly not as strong, I often find a disconnection between my intentions and the reader's interpretation.

                    Basically, if you're boring the reader, his/her job just became that much harder, and that person's review will often reflect a sense of distance from the writing.

                    As always, though, you could just be a victim of subjectivity. But since BL seems to be primarily interested in marketing great screenplays, rather than improving those that need work, it stands to reason that anything that seemingly got "skimmed" was a result of a lack of connection with the material and can't necessarily be attributed to a large workload.
                    Um... this isn't about my scores (haven't gotten mine yet), it's about another poster's experience which also reflects several others I've heard about.

                    Ghost: I agree that the better the script, the more careful the read, but I still think misstating plot points like saying a character kills them self when they don't kill them self is wrong; a reader misstating facts of a plot isn't the same as saying they didn't like a certain aspect of the plot, which is subjective.
                    "Do just once what others say you can't do, and you will never pay attention to their limitations again." -[/SIZE] James R. Cook

                    Comment


                    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                      Just to chime in on the results of readers/ratings and the subjectivity of it all - I'll share a little of my experience so far.

                      And let me preface by saying I think this service has a lot of potential for good, so don't read this as a complaint. It's more of a caveat emptor and an illustration of subjectivity. Just like any time you submit a script to anyone in this biz.

                      I was curious to check this thing out, and more curious what (if any) benefits there truly might be for a writer with reps and credits. So I signed up, uploaded a script and paid for two reads at that time. Figured that was the best way to make a fair assessment.

                      It's a small character drama.

                      One rating came back (7 overall) with 8s for both characters and dialogue.. And that was the focus of the comments in the "Strengths" section:

                      "The script's greatest quality is its characters. [X] and [Y], especially, are fully-realized, complex people and thus, enjoyable to read. The interactions are realistic and interesting, allowing room for the characters to change their minds, choose wrong, and struggle to fix it. The dialogue is also skillfully manipulated. It skips the information that can be inferred to get into the meat of each moment and has that wandering quality that real conversations have."

                      The second rating came back(3 overall) with a 4 for characters and a 3 for dialogue. And thus was the entire focus of the "Weakness" section:

                      The script is far too "on the nose" with much of its dialogue an thinly veiled metaphors. The characters constantly communicated through the use of drab cliches, and the relationships feel very forced. An example of this would be the relationship between the protagonist and the character of [Z], as their back-and-forth dialogue feels contrived... characters [have] lack of depth, and personal goals...

                      ^^Couldn't ask for more polar opposite reactions than that. Almost seems like they read two completely different scripts.

                      How does one person call dialogue "on the nose" while the other says, "skillfully manipulated"?? How does one say characters have "lack of depth and personal goals..." And the other says, "the greatest quality is its characters... fully realized, complex people"??

                      Is one of these readers more right than the other? Well I know who I agree with, but that doesn't make the other person wrong. You're never gonna connect with everyone. I've been doing this long enough to understand the game. And my point in posting is just to highlight the nature of subjectivity inherent in all of this. And what everyone submitting needs to realize is that this same thing happens with readers at prodcos and studios, agencies, etc... every time scripts come in.

                      And for anyone curious -- from a quantitative POV. I had that first overall 7 rating up for more than a week before the second came in. And with a 7, it garnered exactly 1 additional anonymous download during that week. So magic number obviously needs to be higher than 7 to get people reading (at least in the drama/ coming of age genre) -- in case that helps you determine whether to keep a script going for additional months, etc...

                      Again, this is not a complaint. I've been doing this too long to accuse a reader of being "wrong" -- it's just the way the ball bounces. But I think the more experiences shared will help both the site hone itself to its best possible incarnation and potential "clients" to make informed decisions about how they use the site.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                        Franklin,

                        How does a script receive a new download without getting a new impression? It's happened to me twice now. Are impressions like unique page views as opposed to straight up impressions?

                        Thanks.
                        ==========

                        Comment


                        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                          Originally posted by The Calculator View Post
                          I'd like to know more about the industry players. Who are they exactly? Are the top agencies represented? The top production companies? The studios? And if so, could you provide numbers on how many scripts they've downloaded and/or ranked?

                          Or - If this cannot be provided - can a writer at least know who's been downloading their work? I believe right now it's set up to show how many downloads... It would be a lot more beneficial to a writer to know *exactly* who is reading their work.
                          We won't be providing information to the writer on who exactly reads their script as that would strongly discourage reads of any sort, and the site is designed to do exactly the opposite.

                          As for our membership, I'm not at liberty to identify individuals, but I can comfortably say that every major agency, studio, production company, and management company is well represented. The vast majority of our membership comes from mainline Hollywood, the sort of folks who vote for the annual Black List and represent and make the films that are on it.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                            Originally posted by seanryan View Post
                            Franklin

                            Thanks for setting up this community/website, being a hard working indie writer, I'm a big fan of the concept and potential opportunities it brings.

                            I joined the blacklist about four weeks ago and immediately payed for a professional review to make sure my work received some kind of rating to hopefully get the ball rolling.

                            I received my review this morning which had some good comments, some fair remarks encouraging prospects and a score of 5.0 - which is ok.

                            Then I checked the marks which were 7, 4, 5 and 6 - the 4 stung a fair bit for a plot score (as this is the 14th draft and I've spent more on coverage and contests then I did my last car).

                            So I read the remarks and a few questions asked where clearly explained in the story with one question not happening at all in the plot i.e. why did one character try to kill the hero - he didn't he killed himself??? I know some question can sometimes not be clearly answered - but out of the four questions asked in the feedback 2 are and one never even happened in the story. I gave the impression the script might have been "skimmed" over rather than read - which could be a result of the workload of scripts on the site.

                            This is not a complaint by any means as I've been writing screenplays for ten years now and it's not my style.

                            I was just wondering can a member get a second opinion without paying if they feel the reader "got in wrong"?

                            And why with a score of 7, 4 (ouch), 5 and 6 would the average not be 5.5 rather than 5?

                            Sean
                            I cannot emphasize enough that if there is something factually incorrect in your evaluation, you should email us directly via the address on the About page. While it's undeniably true that these sorts of errors do happen, even at very high levels, and they often happen as a consequence of confusing writing or poor writing resulting in a less than close read from readers (ours or otherwise), they are unacceptable for our purposes, and I will not hesitate to let go readers who are delivering substandard work. I already have.

                            As for the average, the overall score represents the reader's overall impressions of the script, not an average of its parts. As we all know, some films - and some screenplays - are greater than the sum of their parts. Others are less than. And moreover, the component scores don't represent all the things that contribute to a script's overall quality. We selected those for specific reasons but they are by no means exhaustive.

                            Interestingly though, the average of all of the component scores is almost exactly equal to the average of all of the overall scores.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                              Originally posted by JJBones View Post
                              Again, this is not a complaint. I've been doing this too long to accuse a reader of being "wrong" -- it's just the way the ball bounces. But I think the more experiences shared will help both the site hone itself to its best possible incarnation and potential "clients" to make informed decisions about how they use the site.
                              Could not agree more. If it's not clear by now, let me say it again: we want your feedback. We will use it to help hone to the site to its best possible incarnation.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                                Originally posted by Hasil Adkins View Post
                                Franklin,

                                How does a script receive a new download without getting a new impression? It's happened to me twice now. Are impressions like unique page views as opposed to straight up impressions?

                                Thanks.
                                Bingo.

                                Comment

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