Backend points... standard?

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  • Backend points... standard?

    Is it standard to get a percentage of profits on a regular option/purchase agreement for a first time writer?

    If it is, would be a dealbreaker if you weren't getting any?
    Last edited by slupo; 02-24-2014, 02:32 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Backend points... standard?

    not sure what they mean by "backend points" but if it's anything other than first-dollar gross, then they are monkey points. there is never any backend.

    (i don't believe first-dollar points are typical for most writers)

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    • #3
      Re: Backend points... standard?

      Originally posted by JoeBanks View Post
      not sure what they mean by "backend points" but if it's anything other than first-dollar gross, then they are monkey points. there is never any backend.

      (i don't believe first-dollar points are typical for most writers)
      I meant a percentage of the profits. I thought that was what backend points were but I could be wrong!

      You mean profit percentages are worthless because they manipulate the numbers so a movie doesn't usually make a profit?

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      • #4
        Re: Backend points... standard?

        again, it all depends on how they're defining the term "profit"

        http://gawker.com/5196154/how-movie-stars-get-paid

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        • #5
          Re: Backend points... standard?

          This page did a fairly nice job of discussing different types of back-end deals:

          http://www.creativeskillset.org/film...cle_5080_1.asp

          I've typically seen about 3-5% of producer's net profits in standard writing contracts for me.

          Those supposedly never pay off, but my attorney said that for indie films they sometimes have a chance of actually paying out -- which I assume is because it's harder to play a shell game with the profits off a straight-up indie film sale.
          Steven Palmer Peterson

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          • #6
            Re: Backend points... standard?

            If you're being offered a percentage of profits it's most likely a means to get get you to agree to a lower up-front payment with the expectation there will be greater rewards when the film makes a profit. The definition of 'profit' will almost certainly guarantee that you don't see an extra penny. This type of deal is often offered to first time writers in the hope they will not know any better and fall for it. It's safer to take the maximum up-front payment you can get and forfeit anything resembling back-end percentages other than a box office bonus, which they are not going to offer you anyway. The only money you are likely to see is the money you are paid up front. The devil will be in the detail - you need an entertainment attorney to scrutinize the contract and advise whether or not you are likely to see any of the enticing profits of which they speak.
            "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

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            • #7
              Re: Backend points... standard?

              There are net points and there are gross points.

              You're not getting gross points and net points are useless.

              Forget about back-end. Focus on front-end.

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              • #8
                Re: Backend points... standard?

                Originally posted by JoeBanks View Post
                not sure what they mean by "backend points" but if it's anything other than first-dollar gross, then they are monkey points.
                Not at all true. Lots of good backend definitions that aren't first dollar. Cash break, for instance.

                But the writer isn't getting any of that. ATB is correct. We are paid as follows:

                1. Up front money
                2. Credit bonus, should we get credit
                3. Box office bonuses occasionally
                4. Residuals

                I've never received a penny of back end money in 18 years of professional screenwriting, nor do I expect to. It's boilerplate to receive 5% of "defined net profits." To put it in perspective, Identity Thief (which cost 35 and made 135 in U.S. box office alone, not to mention international, video or pay television) is about $80 million in the hole per the net profit definition.

                It's baloney accounting. Don't worry about back end unless you're dealing with a very small budget and receiving little or no up front money.

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                • #9
                  Re: Backend points... standard?

                  thanks!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Backend points... standard?

                    Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                    Not at all true. Lots of good backend definitions that aren't first dollar. Cash break, for instance.

                    But the writer isn't getting any of that. ATB is correct. We are paid as follows:

                    1. Up front money
                    2. Credit bonus, should we get credit
                    3. Box office bonuses occasionally
                    4. Residuals

                    .
                    Are residuals also paid on rewrite gigs? If so, how are they shared between the various writers?
                    "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

                    Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Backend points... standard?

                      Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                      But the writer isn't getting any of that. ATB is correct. We are paid as follows:


                      3. Box office bonuses occasionally

                      Iy.
                      I started a new thread on the issue of box office bonuses at http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...208#post897208.

                      How common are these and what rates are typical?
                      "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

                      Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Backend points... standard?

                        Originally posted by LauriD View Post
                        Are residuals also paid on rewrite gigs? If so, how are they shared between the various writers?
                        You only get residuals if you qualify for credit.

                        I think it's 75% for "screenplay by" and 25% for "story by" or something close to that, split between all writers who qualify for that part of the credit. ("Story by," however, means you get certain other separated rights).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Backend points... standard?

                          Originally posted by DavidK View Post
                          If you're being offered a percentage of profits it's most likely a means to get get you to agree to a lower up-front payment with the expectation there will be greater rewards when the film makes a profit. The definition of 'profit' will almost certainly guarantee that you don't see an extra penny. This type of deal is often offered to first time writers in the hope they will not know any better and fall for it. It's safer to take the maximum up-front payment you can get and forfeit anything resembling back-end percentages other than a box office bonus, which they are not going to offer you anyway. The only money you are likely to see is the money you are paid up front. The devil will be in the detail - you need an entertainment attorney to scrutinize the contract and advise whether or not you are likely to see any of the enticing profits of which they speak.

                          This shouldn't ever happen if you've even got a semi-decent agent, manager, or lawyer.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Backend points... standard?

                            Originally posted by Aros View Post
                            This shouldn't ever happen if you've even got a semi-decent agent, manager, or lawyer.
                            Exactly.
                            "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Backend points... standard?

                              Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                              Not at all true. Lots of good backend definitions that aren't first dollar. Cash break, for instance.

                              But the writer isn't getting any of that. ATB is correct. We are paid as follows:

                              1. Up front money
                              2. Credit bonus, should we get credit
                              3. Box office bonuses occasionally
                              4. Residuals
                              How about the DVD bonus? I failed to propose it instead when they struck my request for gross points and feel suckerishly :-(

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