Theme examples, rather than just debate.

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  • #16
    Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

    Originally posted by CutteRug View Post
    Sorry read. I think this is the type of "vague theme talk" that gets us into trouble, and therefore diminishes the credibility of theme as a viable story construction tool.

    "Win" expresses a goal, but not the human quality that goes after that goal (and succeeds or doesn't). So I don't think "win" is a specific theme to a story, but rather a general story dynamic present in all stories.

    Every movie deals with some form of competition between entities. Every dramatic story has some form of winning and losing. Some form of desire, some form of obsacles.

    "Win" is just too vague. Instead, ask yourself what behavior is winning against what other behavior? Who is competing against whom, and WHY does one win and one lose in this specific story?
    I got this concept from some story analyst that was speaking at some sort of expo... or something.

    I would say that WIN is a goal expressed in lots of movies. Winning friendship, relationship, my independence.(Cable Guy)

    but, take a movie like: As Good as it Gets. It's not about winning, but Forgetting.
    Forget why things are so bad and take a chance on love.
    Forget why you hate Melvin(Nicholson) and go on a trip with him.
    Forget all of Melvins problems and find what's great about him.
    Forget your Problems, Melvin and take the leap and fall in love.
    Everyone needs to forget the past, racism, hate, female insecurity.

    And step on a few cracks in the street.

    let me see I can go another one:

    okay I'll do the opposing value. Remember.

    YOJIMBO. Kurosawa. all the actions in the film, bring him back, to Remember why he's a Samurai(similar to the Superman films)

    Remember your honor, and if you can't be a servant of the people of Japan, then you are of no use to anyone.

    At first he tries to not get involved, but he remembers his duty as a samurai.

    With each scene he goes back and forth to each of the antagonists, presenting justice, Samurai style. With each action he remembers why the people need samurai and why only he can be the justice of the land.

    his character arc is directly related to the Theme of the film. The fact that it was made in 1961, about Samurai. Says:

    Remember this time, and what samurai ment to the Japanese people.
    Last edited by reddery; 09-04-2007, 07:22 PM.
    But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

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    • #17
      Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

      The theme of Reservoir Dogs is you can't trust anyone (No honor among thieves). The theme of Pulp Fiction is redemption.

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      • #18
        Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

        Originally posted by Tanuki View Post
        The theme of Reservoir Dogs is you can't trust anyone (No honor among thieves). The theme of Pulp Fiction is redemption.
        Okay. Point out to me where those themes are demonstrated in the films.

        IE. who betrays who in Reserv(n)oir Dogs? At no point or in any scene does anyone betray anyone else, but the actual opposite happens. The cop that is captured, won't betray Orange.

        Pink, returns to the meeting place, even after he knows they were set up. As to honor their agreement.

        Blonde returns to work for Cabot. And is trusted to go back to work.

        White, up till the very end, won't betray Orange. Till, he learns that he has to, to keep each other honor.

        What it proves, and why criminals like it, and why you think that is. By the end of the film, if Pink had betrayed them, he would have gotten the money, stayed alive. If any of them betray each other they would have survived. If Orange chickened out and dishonored the police force, none of this would have happened.

        But again I see, you watch movies. Writing them is different.

        --------------------------------------

        Okay Pulp. first I will say I've seen both these films a lot. I saw Pulp in theaters on opening day, actually twice in the say day. But, the second time I was drunk.

        so pulp is about redemption... Billy M came up with the same conclusion. So your in good company. I've taken some of his classes and he's a smart guy.

        But, I have to differ.

        Does Butch redeem himself by winning the fight? no. It's planned from the beginning, it's a scam.

        Does Jules redeem himself by not dying? he never does anything, he just adds to Butch's theme. He makes Butch's struggle against Marsellus more...

        Vince? redemption? common... give me a break.

        Mia, still a coked out whore in the end of the film.

        I have a bunch of stupid friends, who think they have insight to films and they tell me about movies. Even here these guys say they are sceenwriters and read books, really, I'm not sure what books. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys graduated from UC's and hold degrees in screenwriting.

        Butch Wins, he make Marsellus his bitch.

        Butch bets on himself and Wins.

        I'll pull the quote then I won't comment of the film anymore... besides to rewrite the post to Tao. Here's the quote by Butch.

        "That's how you're gonna beat 'em, Butch. They keep underestimatin' ya."
        But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

          I'll ignore the personal stuff and just try to support my earlier post.

          Originally posted by reddery View Post
          Okay. Point out to me where those themes are demonstrated in the films.

          IE. who betrays who in Reserv(n)oir Dogs? At no point or in any scene does anyone betray anyone else, but the actual opposite happens. The cop that is captured, won't betray Orange.

          Pink, returns to the meeting place, even after he knows they were set up. As to honor their agreement.

          Blonde returns to work for Cabot. And is trusted to go back to work.

          White, up till the very end, won't betray Orange. Till, he learns that he has to, to keep each other honor.

          What it proves, and why criminals like it, and why you think that is. By the end of the film, if Pink had betrayed them, he would have gotten the money, stayed alive. If any of them betray each other they would have survived. If Orange chickened out and dishonored the police force, none of this would have happened.
          You're proving my point here. White trusts Orange, ends up getting killed for it. Orange trusts that his supervisor's plan will work, ends up getting killed. The cop trusts Orange, ends up getting killed by Nice Guy Eddie. Pink trusts Orange and Eddie, ends up getting either caught or shot by the police. Blonde ignores Orange, thinking he's not a threat; Orange kills Blonde. Joe trusts that his friendship with White will prevent White from shooting him when he shoots Orange; White shoots him anyway. Just about everyone trusts everyone else when they shouldn't, and they all pay the price.



          Originally posted by reddery View Post
          Okay Pulp. first I will say I've seen both these films a lot. I saw Pulp in theaters on opening day, actually twice in the say day. But, the second time I was drunk.

          so pulp is about redemption... Billy M came up with the same conclusion. So your in good company. I've taken some of his classes and he's a smart guy.

          But, I have to differ.

          Does Butch redeem himself by winning the fight? no. It's planned from the beginning, it's a scam.

          Does Jules redeem himself by not dying? he never does anything, he just adds to Butch's theme. He makes Butch's struggle against Marsellus more...

          Vince? redemption? common... give me a break.

          Mia, still a coked out whore in the end of the film.

          I have a bunch of stupid friends, who think they have insight to films and they tell me about movies. Even here these guys say they are sceenwriters and read books, really, I'm not sure what books. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys graduated from UC's and hold degrees in screenwriting.

          Butch Wins, he make Marsellus his bitch.

          Butch bets on himself and Wins.

          I'll pull the quote then I won't comment of the film anymore... besides to rewrite the post to Tao. Here's the quote by Butch.

          "That's how you're gonna beat 'em, Butch. They keep underestimatin' ya."
          Jules is redeemed when he gives up his life of crime; this is supported by his getting out of the diner holdup unscathed. In addition, he gives Honey Bunny and Pumpkin a chance at redemption when he ordinarily would have killed them both.

          Butch fixes the fight and tries to run, but he is redeemed when he saves Marcellus Wallace from Zed and his cronies. Marcellus gives him a chance to leave town instead of killing him.

          Who says Mia is still a "coked out whore" in the end? We have no idea what happens to her. All we know is she was ready to cheat on her husband but had a brush with death. What we do know is that if she had told Marcellus what happened, Vince would have been killed, but she didn't -- she gave him a shot at redemption.

          Vince ignores the chances for redemption offered by Jules and Mia -- he stays the same guy. He gets shot coming out of the can.

          I agree with whoever said "winning" can't be a movie's theme. Way too vague. Every film has competition on some level, or else it's the most boring film in history.

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          • #20
            Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

            Ok, I'll take a crack at another movie on the list printed earlier.

            Disturbia: appearances can be deceiving.

            On the surface, Shia's character would appear to be just some @sshole kid who popped his teacher. But really, he's a kid tortured by guilt over the death of his father.

            The neighbor girl seems well-adjusted, but she's got family issues, as well. The little kids appear to their mother to be watching something educational, but they're actually watching porn. The other neighbor gets with his housekeeper while his wife's playing tennis.

            And then, of course, there's the mild-mannered serial killer.

            I'm not saying the themes are particularly well-developed, but they're there.

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            • #21
              Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

              See we are talking about two different things.

              We are in a screenwriters forum. We talk about how to write a script.

              Not how we feel about what we watched
              Last edited by reddery; 09-06-2007, 01:11 AM.
              But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                Originally posted by Tanuki View Post
                Disturbia: appearances can be deceiving.
                (sings)
                transformers, more than meets the eye.
                autobots transform from cars and beat up other robots that look like jets and they are all from a place called cybertron.
                transformers, more than meets the eye
                Micheal bay said to give optimus flames on the side of his truck, cause he thought it would be 'way cool'
                transformers, surfs up bro
                Megatron was a handgun, but they made him into Galvatron for the movie and killed him so he can never be in the series ever again
                transformers, can you say punisher with dolph lundgren

                umm, I'll watch Disturbia right now and get back to you.
                But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                  Originally posted by Tanuki View Post
                  Jules is redeemed when he gives up his life of crime
                  Yeah but jules is the antagonist in the movie.


                  Originally posted by Tanuki View Post
                  this is supported by his getting out of the diner holdup unscathed. In addition, he gives Honey Bunny and Pumpkin a chance at redemption when he ordinarily would have killed them both.
                  I've kinda hinted around this. the theme is directly tied to the protagonist's goal.

                  Originally posted by Tanuki View Post
                  I agree with whoever said "winning" can't be a movie's theme. Way too vague. Every film has competition on some level, or else it's the most boring film in history.
                  That was Cuttrug... I think hew won some short competition
                  Last edited by reddery; 09-06-2007, 03:11 AM.
                  But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                    Originally posted by reddery View Post
                    See we are talking about two different things.

                    We are in a screenwriters forum. We talk about how to write a script.

                    Not how we feel about what we watched
                    That's funny, I thought we were talking about examples of themes in film. Rather than just debate. What could have given me that idea... Oh yeah, the title of the thread.

                    And Jules isn't the antagonist.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                      Originally posted by Tanuki View Post
                      That's funny, I thought we were talking about examples of themes in film. Rather than just debate. What could have given me that idea... Oh yeah, the title of the thread.

                      And Jules isn't the antagonist.
                      my response should explain why he's the antagonist?

                      "I been sayin' that **** for years. And if you ever heard it, it meant your ass. I never really questioned what it meant. I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a mother****** 'fore you popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some **** this mornin' made me think twice. Now I'm thinkin', it could mean you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. .45 here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or is could by you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. I'd like that.But that **** ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin'. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd."

                      "it's the one that says, bad motherfvcker"
                      But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                        VINCENT
                        I'm not sayin' he was right, but you're sayin' a foot massage don't mean nothing, and I'm sayin' it does. I've given a million ladies a million foot massages and they all meant somethin'. We act like they don't, but they do. That's what's so fvckin' cool about 'em.
                        This sensual thing's goin' on that nobody's talkin about, but you know it and she knows it, fvckin' Tarantino knew it, and Antwan shoulda known fvckin' better.
                        That's his fvckin' wife, man. He ain't gonna have a sense of humor about that ****.
                        JULES
                        That's an interesting point, but let's get into character.
                        But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                          An antagonist is someone who gets in the way of the protagonist's achieving his or her goal. So by your logic, the protagonists of Pulp Fiction are Honey Bunny and Pumpkin. Or else one of the kids eating Big Kahuna burgers.

                          It's a multi-protagonist story. Jules is one of them.

                          Look, CutteRug set up this thread for examples, not debate, so I'm getting out now. Good luck with whatever it is you do.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                            Originally posted by Tanuki View Post
                            An antagonist is someone who gets in the way of the protagonist's achieving his or her goal. So by your logic, the protagonists of Pulp Fiction are Honey Bunny and Pumpkin. Or else one of the kids eating Big Kahuna burgers.
                            could be, they enbody protagonist Butch.

                            and it could also be, that is Marsellus's soul in the briefcase.

                            Enlish Dave
                            He's booked

                            Marsellus
                            I'm prepared to scour the earth for this motherfvkcer. If Butch goes to Indo China, I want a ****** hidin' in a bowl of rice, ready to pop a cap in his ass.
                            But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                              What is this fascination with Theme?

                              I'm feeling 'themed' out already...

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                              • #30
                                Re: Theme examples, rather than just debate.

                                yeah disturbia theme is Survival

                                That's the point of the opening scene with his father and the fish surviving and getting away.

                                Then Kale survives the car crash.

                                Can he survive the few months under house arrest.

                                Conclusion - Can he survive and save his mother, unlike his father.


                                If I was going to write a log line.

                                Can Kale survive his fathers death, a month of house arrest, and a murderer next door, who's next victim is his own mother.
                                But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

                                Comment

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