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Old 06-21-2019, 09:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: Daily Beast article

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Originally Posted by finalact4 View Post
of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and i respect that, but...

idk, i disagree. for me, he's a reckless director that breaks labor laws and ignores the safety of his cast and crew. it wasn't an accident that those people died, it was negligence. If they weren't on set, breaking the law, shooting at night with children, have pyrotechnics with children on set, flying the helicopter lower than safely recommended because John wanted a more dangerous looking shot, they never would have died.

that's the bottom line.

the only reason we know about The Twighlight Zone incident, is because of the accident, but this is a character flaw and as such it's highly doubtful this was the first time, or the last, he pushed the limits far beyond what was reasonable.

it's all part of what kind of director he is. how can you separate them? it's not like he had a DUI and killed someone in a car accident when he wasn't working. this incident happened because he was a director breaking the law and ignoring the safety recommendation of others.

imo, he isn't a director to admire, that just condones his actions.

UpandComing, i'm not attacking your position, simply stating my own. no offense intended.
I think you may have misconstrued my meaning. I described him as a "talented director." When I say that, I'm referring to the skill he brings to the screen. He had a string of hits, many of which are considered classics, so I don't think his talent with what he brings to the screen is really up for debate.

His negligence does indicate poor performance. But just because you perform poorly in one or even a few aspects of your job, it does not mean you are not talented. For example, a research analyst may write amazing research reports, while consistently turning them in late. Or a screenwriter may write amazing screenplays that have a lot of typos (see Quentin Tarantino). Just because he exhibits poor performance in the latter regard, it does not mean that he isn't a talented screenwriter.
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: Daily Beast article

Again, when I said separate work from artist that includes their talent. A terrible human being can be an amazing singer, director, painter... their talent is what we can enjoy still as I see it, but their personal story we condemn.

A terrible person can be talented at their craft and also shitty at their humanity.

MOVIE SET DEATHS...

I feel I've heard stories about so many admired directors who put their cast and crew in danger -- he is far from the only one. He just had a terrible terrible result that yes was mostly his fault. The most recent one was that women who died on the train tracks to get a stupid shot in a movie I can't even name...

It's up to EVERYONE on set to say "NO" when asked to do these things but I 100% understand how the director is at fault ultimately.

It's insane how many people die making movies. I still can't believe Brandon Lee died...

No one should die making a stupid movie. We joke about Tom Cruise dying on screen, but at least that appears to be his choice. But when I heard Quentin almost killed Uma on what Kill Bill set, that's just terrible to hear.

Usually you hear a stunt man or woman dying or a crew member or helicopter pilot... and they don't even give a god damn Oscar to these people for what they do...
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:43 PM   #23
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Just to clarify -- of course one has to separate the artist from the work -- but my purpose in posting was to point out how routinely borderline and actually criminal behavior is normalized in the business, and how often this applies doubly to the progeny of the powerful. I remember a producer friend describing Hollywood as an elaborate ego zoo where the biggest animals never hear the word 'no.'

Below I've linked a 1988 LA Times article following the conclusion of all the trials. I've included excerpts which explain my point in greater detail. One aspect of this piece, the black-balling of cameraman Stephen Lydecker, who along with a couple of colleagues, did a press-conference to publicize the unnecessarily dangerous risks of the movie business, says everything about how the system still works.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...446-story.html

Others remain more skeptical about the lasting effects of the case. Maverick film maker John Sayles recently directed "Eight Men Out," a movie about the notorious Chicago Black Sox baseball scandal of 1919. In Sayles' morality tale, the popular ballplayers who participated in a scheme to throw the World Series are found not guilty in a court of law but are nonetheless banished from professional baseball. Sayles contrasts the fate of the athletes portrayed in his film with the destiny of Hollywood titans.

"In the movie business," he says, "the more powerful you are, the higher up you are on the ladder, the less likely you are to truly pay a price for your actions or face the music. The Black Sox scandal happened at the end of a more innocent era, but we are living in a very cynical time now."

Steve Shagan, a screenwriter ("Save the Tiger") and novelist ("The Formula") who was a close friend of Vic Morrow, agrees that the idea of blackballing is offensive, but he is also disturbed by what he sees as the expediency of Hollywood. "If Adolf Eichmann arrived at a studio with a good script and Robert Redford committed to star," Shagan suggests astringently, "they'd park the Mercedes for him and say, 'What six million?''


"Whatever Landis' private thoughts about the accident, in the eyes of most Hollywood deal makers, the "Twilight Zone" debacle is probably a less relevant part of his resume than the box-office gross of "Coming to America." For others involved in the tragedy, finding a way out of the Twilight Zone has proved more difficult.

The parents of Myca Le were divorced two years after the accident. In a legal deposition filed in 1985, Renee Chen's mother, Shyan-Huei Chen, said she believes "that she will continue to suffer serious mental anguish, emotional distress and severe depression for so long as she lives in the future."

Like Shyan-Huei Chen, Steve Lydecker cannot purge the memory of that night at Indian Dunes. He still recalls the keening wail of Chen as she knelt over the crushed remains of her daughter, pleading with the child to wake up. "I don't think I'll ever get that sight or sound out of my head," he says with a shudder.

Yet Lydecker seems philosophical about his ruined career in the movie business. "I don't need the 16-hour days on a set anymore," he says. "My time with my family is more valuable than having a Rolls-Royce parked in the driveway." Then Lydecker goes on quietly, "Besides, I'm not sure I want to work in an industry where you have to kill three people to make a picture."
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Old 06-24-2019, 05:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: Daily Beast article

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Originally Posted by UpandComing View Post
I think you may have misconstrued my meaning. I described him as a "talented director." When I say that, I'm referring to the skill he brings to the screen. He had a string of hits, many of which are considered classics, so I don't think his talent with what he brings to the screen is really up for debate.

His negligence does indicate poor performance. But just because you perform poorly in one or even a few aspects of your job, it does not mean you are not talented. For example, a research analyst may write amazing research reports, while consistently turning them in late. Or a screenwriter may write amazing screenplays that have a lot of typos (see Quentin Tarantino). Just because he exhibits poor performance in the latter regard, it does not mean that he isn't a talented screenwriter.
i don't think i misconstrued what you meant, but apologies if i did. being a director isn't only about what we see on the screen in the final form after everything is said and done. it's about how you get there. that matters. a lot. and please don't get me wrong, i completely respect that you're entitled to your opinion. i just don't agree.

your comparison of turning in work late or having a script with typos really took me aback, because you're actually comparing "typos" to someone being "killed." a man died. two children died. their parents were not told the situation and that their kids would be filming with explosions. not even remotely similar. maybe you didn't intend it to come off that way, but it did to me.

a better example might be if an anesthesiologist was "on call" and was drinking then went into surgery knowing he was intoxicated and the patient dies because his judgement was impaired. he could still could have been the best anesthesiologist in the state, but not after that. the expectation is that you will make good decisions. drinking before surgery is not a good decision. now, would you like to be that patient on the operating table? or a parent of a child on the operating table? not me.

i don't know the whole story with the helicopter accident or the findings, so i'm unprepared to pose an argument, but for me, it's one and the same. if you're a director putting lives at stake, and breaking the law because you think you're above it all, you're a bad director. breaking child labor laws is NOT a good decision. put children in scenes with explosions is against the law, to do so is a bad decision. the crew and cast's safety is the director's responsibility on set, it is absolutely part of the director's job and a reflection on his ability to do his job well.

we can agree to disagree.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:50 PM   #25
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finalact4, again -- I described Landis as a "talented director." You said that you disagree with this specific description.

Talent is defined as "natural aptitude (a natural ability to do something) or skill." As a director, there are skills involved in putting images on the screen. There are also skills involved in managing people and laws, etc.

All I'm saying is that Landis is talented in putting images on the screen, which for me represents the most important part of being a director.

Even if you do think that the managing people/laws part is an important component of talent as a director -- I'm not sure why you would think that the Twilight Zone incident alone makes him untalented. I haven't heard of many other stories about him being terrible in that regard on sets. So it would seem you that you are using that one incident to generalize.


As I've said, to me there is a difference between talent, which is something that is innate, and performance, which is something that can change from time to time. A brain surgeon who is great at brain surgery may go on a bender and mess up his surgeries. That may make him a bad brain surgeon, with poor performance, but it doesn't make him any less skilled at the actual task of surgery.
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Old 06-24-2019, 07:47 PM   #26
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Hey there UpandComing... thanks for the invite to comment on this thread.

Jeeeze... I sure hope Max's career is over. Is that too harsh? Not to me. Why treat people like objects to brutalize? How is that satisfying to anyone? I say you get one chance in this town to NOT be a pig, you fukk up? Bye. FOREVER. The town should have a ZERO tolerance policy for that crap. Hey, I'm a party guy too (Max), but I ain't gotta rape chicks to get sex. I don't get the allure for these pigs.

When the Kevin Spacey thing broke my mind immediately flashed back to a distinct memory of an assistant at CAA telling me he had ben sexually harassed by Spacey. This was 20 friggin years ago. All the assistants from back then are huge agents now. They knew. I knew, and I didn't even work there. They didn't care. I thought it odd that no one seemed to care.

My opinion: Hollywood either needs to never hire Max Landis again or they need to stop with these preachy PSAs at the Oscars and any time a camera is aimed their direction. Choose a POV and stick to it!

What Hollywood does with Max Landis will reveal their true philosophies.
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Old 06-24-2019, 08:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Daily Beast article

Thanks for the Spacey dish. Whoa.

Agree with what you say regarding Landis and Hollywood hypocrisy. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out since he wasn't just any old screenwriter, but was screenwriting's golden boy (in terms of spec sales, not necessarily talent). Then again, most of his movies have performed poorly commercially (the most important factor to Hollywood, always), so the town might be willing to cut him loose.

The fact that he hasn't released a statement yet regarding the article speaks volumes.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: Daily Beast article

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Originally Posted by UpandComing View Post
Thanks for the Spacey dish. Whoa.

Agree with what you say regarding Landis and Hollywood hypocrisy. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out since he wasn't just any old screenwriter, but was screenwriting's golden boy (in terms of spec sales, not necessarily talent). Then again, most of his movies have performed poorly commercially (the most important factor to Hollywood, always), so the town might be willing to cut him loose.

The fact that he hasn't released a statement yet regarding the article speaks volumes.
Agreed.
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:52 PM   #29
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Default Re: Daily Beast article

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Originally Posted by UpandComing View Post
finalact4, again -- I described Landis as a "talented director." You said that you disagree with this specific description.

Talent is defined as "natural aptitude (a natural ability to do something) or skill." As a director, there are skills involved in putting images on the screen. There are also skills involved in managing people and laws, etc.

All I'm saying is that Landis is talented in putting images on the screen, which for me represents the most important part of being a director.

Even if you do think that the managing people/laws part is an important component of talent as a director -- I'm not sure why you would think that the Twilight Zone incident alone makes him untalented. I haven't heard of many other stories about him being terrible in that regard on sets. So it would seem you that you are using that one incident to generalize.


As I've said, to me there is a difference between talent, which is something that is innate, and performance, which is something that can change from time to time. A brain surgeon who is great at brain surgery may go on a bender and mess up his surgeries. That may make him a bad brain surgeon, with poor performance, but it doesn't make him any less skilled at the actual task of surgery.
UpandComing, i have said many times that i you're entitled to your opinions and that i respect them and i do, but i always feel that you do not return the sentiment. you seem to always come back trying to convince me i'm wrong and you are right, and that your opinion is the only one any person can have.

you can site all the "definitions" you like (quite condescending btw i'm a grown ass woman), i still don't agree with you.

so, how about you extend me the same curtesy and accept that i am in not obligated to agree with you.

certainly no reason to explain yourself, again.
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Old 06-25-2019, 12:52 AM   #30
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Default Re: Daily Beast article

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UpandComing, i have said many times that i you're entitled to your opinions and that i respect them and i do, but i always feel that you do not return the sentiment. you seem to always come back trying to convince me i'm wrong and you are right, and that your opinion is the only one any person can have.

you can site all the "definitions" you like (quite condescending btw i'm a grown ass woman), i still don't agree with you.

so, how about you extend me the same curtesy and accept that i am in not obligated to agree with you.

certainly no reason to explain yourself, again.
Yes, you did say "we can agree to disagree" about what constitutes a talented director. But I raised a new point.

You said a director's preparation/management of people plays a role in his talent, then used that as evidence that Landis is untalented. But I brought up the point that you have no evidence that Landis has exhibited a pattern of poor preparation on his movies -- you are just using The Twilight Zone example. So, how can you call him untalented based on one example?

So frankly, it wasn't a matter of "agreeing to disagree" on that matter, because you didn't express an opinion on that specific point. You can only agree to disagree if there are two sides.
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