Central Dramatic Argument

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  • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

    I've read this thread and I'm submitting for 3 hours of university credit.
    #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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    • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

      Originally posted by nojustice View Post
      The dramatic argument in Jaws, is between saving money and saving lives. It coincides with an annual festival, which they don't want to cancel, and because of that, they're in denial about the shark.

      And we, as viewer, want to punch them in the nose for it, and that's because the writer took a stance.
      Sure, the argument between money and lives is a dramatic argument, but is it the central argument? Is it argued throughout the story passionately in almost every scene, etc. Is it what the story is really about?

      As Sundown suggested, the right argument concerning fear qualifies for the CDA of Jaws. Jaws opens with the audience experiencing fear. Brody, Quinn, and the Dryfus character all overcame fear in one way or another by the end.

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      • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

        Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
        Sure, the argument between money and lives is a dramatic argument, but is it the central argument? Is it argued throughout the story passionately in almost every scene, etc. Is it what the story is really about?

        As Sundown suggested, the right argument concerning fear qualifies for the CDA of Jaws. Jaws opens with the audience experiencing fear. Brody, Quinn, and the Dryfus character all overcame fear in one way or another by the end.
        Can man overcome a deadly force of nature? The answer posed by the story is: yes through overcoming one's own fears.
        #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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        • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

          Originally posted by Ire View Post
          Can man overcome a deadly force of nature? The answer posed by the story is: yes through overcoming one's own fears.
          Ire, does "Can man overcome a deadly force of nature?" meet the test of a CDA for Jaws?
          If you state it as "man can overcome nature.", it sounds like an argument about a universal theme. But is it central to the story? Does it apply to almost every scene, every line of dialogue, every line of narrative? I don't think it does.

          Plus, I don' think man overcomes nature by overcoming his fears. True, he must overcome his fears to face the threats of nature, but that only puts him in the game. If that is your CDA, create a story that argue how man overcomes nature and how he fails to overcome nature.

          That's my take on this.

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          • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

            You're being waaaaay too simplistic for Jaws, which is a very complicated movie in terms of theme.

            You can write books on that one (and I think people have). For me, the argument at its core is "Man must be both savage and civilized in order to survive."

            But that's just me, and like I said, Jaws is a complicated bit of business.

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            • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

              To tack on to what Lowell is talking about (because he's spot on), you can see a clear tug of war in Jaws...

              The very civilized Richard Dreyfuss on one side, the vengeful darkness of Robert Shaw on the other, and Roy Scheider in the middle, unsure which man is right, which will save the town, which will defeat death and preserve survival.

              Turns out the answer is: it's Scheider, because he's a little bit of both of them.

              But the movie makes an argument out of the argument.

              That's why themes like "crime doesn't pay" are boring, because even though you can argue them, why bother?

              However, themes like "it's best to be yourself" can still be interesting if the protagonist is someone we instinctively feel could be "better," e.g. a coward, a weakling, an impoverished nobody...

              Sometimes theme + character makes the argument interesting.

              But there needs to be an argument.

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              • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                Feel free to tell me this has already been answered or discussed in the very long thread, but concerning the dramatic question of your script, do people feel a writer has to, ultimately, take a side.
                It's the eye of the Tiger, it's the thrill of the fight

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                • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                  What's repugnant about these generalizing questions, is that they attempt to bring everything down to a standardized equation.

                  Writers just bring in terms that most closely describe their own processes. You have to make those decisions for yourself. They all seem to agree on one thing, and that is, that there are no rules.

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                  • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                    Originally posted by Jules View Post
                    Feel free to tell me this has already been answered or discussed in the very long thread, but concerning the dramatic question of your script, do people feel a writer has to, ultimately, take a side.
                    Most often, the writer should take a side. There are stories, however, where the essence of the drama is the ambiguity of the moral question at the heart of the movie. In those cases, it's okay to leave off without deciding.

                    Still, you should be able to make the arguments.

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                    • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                      Originally posted by nojustice View Post
                      And you don't have to get too adamant about the opposing view being "as strong", because in Jaws, the argument of saving money/votes, was obviously weaker, just as in Alien, the case of allowing the infected crew member back into the ship was stronger.

                      And the argument doesn't have to be "central". There can be more than one argument.

                      You don't have to pin any of it down.
                      We're talking about the central dramatic argument and your "saving money/votes" argument is limited to the first act and thus isn't "central", whereas running away from, and facing up to, one's fears (Brody, Quint, Mayor Vaughan - and in the book, Brody's wife) runs the length of the film. I also don't understand how you can say it's the "central" argument when at the same time acknowledge it's a weaker element.

                      Having said that, I agree that there can be lots of themes at play, as with Jaws and the other films I listed, just that as we were talking about the CDA of film and thus I pulled out the biggest one of all - fear. Fear takes Brody to Amity and runs through the entire cast. That Hooper runs away from the shark and survies whilst Quint goes one on one and tasted really good also adds fuel to the debate of "can you/should you run away from your fears?". In the book he dies but that was payback for knobbing Brody's wife.
                      Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 01-26-2012, 03:20 AM.
                      M.A.G.A.

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                      • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                        Have you discussed theme/cda in one of your podcasts, Craig?
                        It's the eye of the Tiger, it's the thrill of the fight

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                        • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                          I'd be interested to know if there's a major, well known film that doesn't have a CDA for as Craig said, many successful writers don't write with one in mind.
                          M.A.G.A.

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                          • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                            I don't really relate to thinking in terms of a central dramatic argument.

                            But looking at Woody Allen along those lines is interesting. In a way, he extracted comedy by giving the impression of being confused by both sides of the argument, or complicating the argument by bringing in another argument. Or when he did take a stance, torture himself regretting it.

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                            • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                              Originally posted by nojustice View Post
                              I don't really relate to thinking in terms of a central dramatic argument.

                              But looking at Woody Allen along those lines is interesting. In a way, he extracted comedy by giving the impression of being confused by both sides of the argument, or complicating the argument by bringing in another argument. Or when he did take a stance, torture himself regretting it.
                              I'm interested to know what your approach is.

                              As for CDA, and I ask this seriously, was there one for Mary Poppins? I recall the kids feeling abandoned by their dad who was a workaholic but can't see a theme running off that.
                              M.A.G.A.

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                              • Re: Central Dramatic Argument

                                Maybe some movies have themes that are harder to 'articulate' can't find the word I'm really looking for, but they (theme) are still active at a more subconcious level.
                                It's the eye of the Tiger, it's the thrill of the fight

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