A good script vs. a sellable script

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  • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

    Potty talk isn't hyphenated, for fuck's sake.

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    • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

      Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
      This should be a quote on DD's main page. Original specs require immense creativity, imagination and invention, but that's VERY HARD. You can't just think up "Juno's" every month. You'll be lucky if you ever find a killer premise, never mind a killer script to go with it.
      That's why I feel like there's two Hollywoods.

      There's the one with the visionary writer-directors like Tarrantino and Wes and PT Anderson and the Coens and Adam McKay and Chris Nolan and David O Russell and Guillermo Del Toro and David Mamet and Woody Allen and James Cameron (and others, but you get the point) who might not always hit it out of the park but who are usually interesting enough to justify the price of a ticket sight unseen.

      Then there's the other Hollywood, with the Robert McKees and the Scriptshadows and the Tracking Board contests and the parasite manager-producers and the 'rules' and the 1000's of wanna-be's trying to break in.

      Seems pretty obvious to me which side is doing better work, is all.

      And we know it takes lots of time to write a good script. That's why the Coens don't release a film every year. But Hollywood should be out there looking for other Coens to pick up the slack, instead of just churning out reliably-mediocre product.


      ps- Please excuse any typos, I have not proof-read this post yet, I'm waiting for Lowell to do it.

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      • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
        Jesus Jumping Christ. There's a thing called IMDB I'll introduce you to later, but in the meantime, in the last twelve months, I've run two shows, read literally hundreds of scripts, and hired a dozen writers, giving four of them their first job and breaking them into the industry.

        But PLEASE, continue trusting the accuracy of some guy who claims to work on a desk of an unnamed agent. I insist.
        Yes, I know who you are, Jeff. The point is not "Jeff Lowell is a doodyhead and he doesn't know what he's talking about." It's more like there are alternative perspectives that are valid as well.

        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
        But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Duffield said exactly what the OP said. Make you a deal - show me a link to that interview, and if it supports the OP, I'll be happy to read one of your scripts. I know it's been years since I've broken in, but I might still have enough juice to get one of my agents to read it if it blows me away.
        I wasn't trying to back up what OP said; I was merely arguing against what you said, which was "Don't put in one second's thought about readers."

        As for the wisdom of Brian Duffield... make of this what you will:

        http://gointothestory.blcklst.com/20...-duffield.html

        If it's a spec script and you're not thinking about how it fits into the market, then you're not doing a huge chunk of your job. If it's something you think will have a hard (if not impossible) time selling, you have to figure you're spending however many months designing a really pretty business card, while the guy beside you is working on designing a really pretty movie. Now that doesn't mean everything you write has to be a summer blockbuster, but you should be aware of what type of thing studios seem to drift towards.(CUT)

        ...as a reader, you stop reading the scripts that are clearly not commercially viable and not written by a genius much faster than you would a terribly written but very commercial spec.


        http://www.screenwritersutopia.com/article/dcd9cb48

        I started to think about the poor bastard who has to read my script and I wanted to make their life as easy as possible because I remembered whenever I picked up a 130 page script I instantly disliked it before I even opened it. If I got a 85 or 90 page script and its Friday night I instantly loved that writer. So that was something that influenced me, my scripts became shorter and sparsely written and that all came from my experiences as a reader. So as a writer you have to ask yourself, what's the one thing you can control right off the bat, and that's the structureof your script.
        It's almost a purely a cosmetic thing I know, but you are one in a pile of screenplays, or maybe the weekend read. So what can you do right away to get on the reader's good side? After that they're hoping that you're a good writer.
        Also, I learned to get rid of flowery descriptions; less was always more. As a miserable reader the less you wrote the happier I was. To this day those two things have influenced everything that I have written.

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        • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

          It's so great to read JeffLowell on DDP again. It's like a thread of sanity cutting through everything.

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          • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

            So in a nutshell, Brian D writes the way he does because he hates reading.

            In a round about way, that means even Brian D is writing for himself. he writes the scripts he would want to read.


            **PS. I find it had to believe he wrote the Babysitter for anything other than a calling card.

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            • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

              Originally posted by MrZero View Post
              I wasn't trying to back up what OP said; I was merely arguing against what you said, which was "Don't put in one second's thought about readers."

              As for the wisdom of Brian Duffield... make of this what you will:

              http://gointothestory.blcklst.com/20...-duffield.html

              Go Into The Story publishes/links these types of things all the time.

              This one was from last Saturday:

              http://www.ssninsider.com/screenwrit...han-ten-pages/

              and basically says the same thing that the OP in this thread said, but it's OK because it comes from a PRO WRITER and not an anonymous assistant.


              Edited to add- By the way, I usually agree at least in principle with most of this type of advice.... As a movie fan, I noticed a trend over the last dozen or so years where directors have been eschewing with opening title credits in favor of jumping right into the story. Not only do I personally appreciate it, but I can sympathize with / relate to anyone giving story advice that basically boils down to "Just get to it, already."

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              • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                Neither of those quotes were anything like the op. I can't deconstruct it again. In boring myself.

                You've got a lot of info, guys. Good luck!

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                • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                  Originally posted by juunit View Post
                  There's a popular saying in Hollywood, that it's really the assistants running the show. Each person is obviously different, but I worked for a producer who used to run physical production for one of the studios before getting his own on the lot deal and he couldn't tie his own shoes....

                  If we are in fact going to treat this as a dick measuring contest though, I will simply point to the quotes already in this thread that came directly from the mouths of Quentin Tarantino and Harvey Keitel about the idea that simply being good is good enough.
                  Originally posted by juunit View Post
                  I will say though, that the idea that great writing will stand out just because it's good is flat out wrong....

                  Most people don't even know what good writing is.... Most people hate reading good writing, because it's boring....
                  You may be a great assistant. You may even have a good chance at getting your boss' job one day. But I doubt you're a writer in the born-to-write sense. People born to write don't talk about writing the way you do. You're looking for angles, you're left-braining it, you're calculating as Koppelman has famously said.

                  And I also think you've misconstrued what Quentin Tarantino and Harvey Keitel said. You're hearing what you want them to say because to think otherwise is scary.
                  Last edited by sc111; 07-19-2015, 11:34 AM.
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                  • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                    BTW - this earlier post below (from page 1) is worth a read by everyone. Very well said, Muckraker. BF parts were highlighted by me.

                    Originally posted by muckraker View Post
                    This is a good post in that it makes good points and gives one something to think about. But it's a bit misleading in regards to the question of "good" versus "sellable."

                    I have done coverage for a major agency and the experience has felt a lot like the OP describes. I have also done coverage for some contests and found the percentage of scripts that it's torturous to slog through in those cases much higher than 75%. I'd take those odds any day in contest reading.

                    But I've also worked for buyers -- places that the agencies and production companies approach with material that's been through the vetting process, and often has significant attachments, or has been written by working successful writers, and that material is probably 90% pretty damn good. And it doesn't have to contain quirky elements early on, or start super-fast, or be freakishly original (sometimes it does, but not always or even often)...because it's just good -- often really good. Just plain good storytelling and great characters and dialogue and "voice." The "sellable" question in that case comes down to largely subjective opinions on the likely budget, past performance of similar films in terms of subject and/or tone, appeal of roles insofar as actors are concerned, and so forth.

                    My point is, at that level it's mostly good writing, and it's not as simple as following (or departing from) the formulas described by the OP. And don't think it's mostly a case of sour grapes that your script isn't getting traction, or that all you need is access and connections to make it. The difference between good writing and everything else really is clear, and at the same time it's not something you can just point to easily and fix (this the crap rewrites the OP complains about). A good script can be largely unsellable but still get a writer attention and assignment work, because it can hold its own in the pile and is a pleasure to read regardless of whether anyone will ever buy it.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                    • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                      You may be a great assistant. You may even have a good chance at getting your boss' job one day. But I doubt you're a writer in the born-to-write sense. People born to write don't talk about writing the way you do. You're looking for angles, you're left-braining it, you're calculating as Koppelman has famously said.
                      Exactly.

                      I don't know how many kids came up on the late, great misc.writing.screenplays, in the day, and their first question was: "How much money can i make writing a screenplay?"

                      There were plenty of real, pro screenwriters on the newsgroup at the time, who answered most of them. But occasionally I would ask them some questions.

                      "Do you like to write fiction?" It was amazing how many of them said no, or they that hadn't really done much writing.

                      "Do you like to tell stories?" Most wanted to know what I meant by that.

                      "You know, for example at school or work, are you guy who goes to lunch and makes up a story to tell when you come back?"

                      They thought I was from Mars.

                      When I told them I'd been writing fiction, just about every day of my life, since I was six (or so), they essentially called me a liar, or ask me why I would do that.

                      When I told them because I enjoy it, that I love playing with words, that I liked creating worlds -- they knew I was from Mars. One time when I was 19, a girl volunteered to work four hours of my shift, if I'd write something for her. When I asked what she wanted me to write, she said: "Anything, just write a story".

                      Anyway the final question usually was: "Would you write if you knew you had no chance of selling, or if you're the only one who would ever read it?'

                      That would usually send them packing.
                      "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                      • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                        You may be a great assistant. You may even have a good chance at getting your boss' job one day. But I doubt you're a writer in the born-to-write sense. People born to write don't talk about writing the way you do.
                        Technically, he wasn't talking as a writer -- he was talking as a reader.

                        His big sin? For this entire thread?

                        Saying -- readers like scripts that have recognizable act breaks.

                        Saying -- readers like it when interesting things happen early on, because then they are invested.

                        Oh my god, lets burn him to the ground!!

                        Then people start saying THERE ARE NO RULES!!! It's bullsh#t!!

                        Let's call him names! Let's tell him he isn't "really" in the business! He'll never be a writer!! How DARE he tell us to be interesting! How DARE he suggest a strong structure might make something more readable!!

                        Rules are bullsh#t!

                        Except: "be interesting," and "write in acts" aren't really rules. They sound a lot like common sense. They sound a lot like things that make your screenplay more attractive to a audience/studio exec/producer/and yes, a reader.

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                        • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                          And I also think you've misconstrued what Quentin Tarantino and Harvey Keitel said. You're hearing what you want them to say because to think otherwise is scary.
                          From a Vanity Fair interview in March of 2013:

                          Keitel meets me in a New York diner expressly because, he says, "I want your readers to know there's great talent out there, and they should be seen and heard. We don't have to keep repeating the same movies and sequels, ad infinitum. An example like Quentin should be a call to arms. Of course, people say, 'Oh, so-and-so would have made it anyway.' That's almost like saying the world is fair, and the cream will rise to the top. That's bullshit.-

                          Everybody can make of it what they want.

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                          • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                            Originally posted by figment View Post
                            Technically, he wasn't talking as a writer -- he was talking as a reader.

                            His big sin? For this entire thread?

                            Saying -- readers like scripts that have recognizable act breaks.

                            Saying -- readers like it when interesting things happen early on, because then they are invested.

                            Oh my god, lets burn him to the ground!!

                            Then people start saying THERE ARE NO RULES!!! It's bullsh#t!!

                            Let's call him names! Let's tell him he isn't "really" in the business! He'll never be a writer!! How DARE he tell us to be interesting! How DARE he suggest a strong structure might make something more readable!!

                            Rules are bullsh#t!

                            Except: "be interesting," and "write in acts" aren't really rules. They sound a lot like common sense. They sound a lot like things that make your screenplay more attractive to a audience/studio exec/producer/and yes, a reader.
                            If you found value in what he said (which btw, is not groundbreaking in any way and has been said umpteen times, in umpteen how-to books), great. In my opinion, anyone who says ...

                            Originally posted by juunit View Post
                            Most people don't even know what good writing is.... Most people hate reading good writing, because it's boring....
                            ... has lost all credibility in advising others on how to write.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                              Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                              From a Vanity Fair interview in March of 2013:

                              Keitel meets me in a New York diner expressly because, he says, "I want your readers to know there's great talent out there, and they should be seen and heard. We don't have to keep repeating the same movies and sequels, ad infinitum. An example like Quentin should be a call to arms. Of course, people say, 'Oh, so-and-so would have made it anyway.' That's almost like saying the world is fair, and the cream will rise to the top. That's bullshit.-

                              Everybody can make of it what they want.
                              Here's what Keitel is not saying in that quote. He's not saying mediocre writing can be dressed up with some secret sauce to fool interns to pass said scripts to the next guy on the totem pole. Which is what the OP said. So, to use anything Keitel and QT has said to support the OP's claim is disingenuous.

                              Look, at some point we have to be brutally honest about our work and skill sets. I know I'm good writer. I've earned a living writing since I graduated college. It even says I'm a writer on my tax return.

                              I also know I have yet to conquer screenwriting at a level where I deserve to be paid for scripts. Worse -- I accept that I may never. I accept I may have plateaued in this particular skill just short of professional.

                              There's no shame in that. There's no shame in acknowledging one's skill level is not yet at professional level. If one cannot bring themselves to admit this, what chance is there of ever improving?

                              In my travels as a paid writer in other circles I guarantee you this -- people resonate to excellent writing. They do. They feel it. Mediocre writers may get gigs here and there for a myriad of blind luck reasons but, over the long haul, they always drop out of the running. Always.
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                              • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                                Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                                If you found value in what he said (which btw, is not groundbreaking in any way and has been said umpteen times, in umpteen how-to books), great.
                                -- Yes, it's been said many times, except when HE said it you said you "doubted he was a writer."

                                Common sense advice from someone who is a reader isn't "left-braining it" or "calculating," it's common sense.

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