Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

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  • #61
    Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

    A strong villain is always (at the very least) one step ahead of the protagonist.

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    • #62
      Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

      Originally posted by Centos View Post
      I've never watched Quanturn of Solace, but if Bond is killing innocent people for revenge i probably wouldn't root for him either -- even if he is, supposedly, the hero.
      In the story he isn't really killing innocent people for revenge, but he does blow up the hotel where the bad guy is staying in an attempt to kill him.

      It is cleverly done - it is paced so the audience never realises that, logically, he is killing hundreds of innocent people. So we don't watch him actually smash a poor cleaner's head into a pulp .. we are just meant to assume that everyone else magically disappeared just before he destroys it.

      Mac
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      • #63
        Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

        For anyone who says it's hard to root for a murderer who kills an innocent man, watch "The Player", Robert Altman's directorial adaptation of the Michael Tolkin novel and script.

        A studio executive murders a screenwriter he erroneously thinks is stalking him.

        As someone who writes screenplays and only rarely stalks, my empathy should be with David Kahane the victim who Griffin kills in an alley behind a restaurant in Pasadena. But it's not.

        The key is making the character likable, compelling and their situation believable. Griffin Mill is being threatened not just by a stalker sending him nasty faxes, but his very livelihood and reputation is on the line with the arrival of Larry Levy, an up and comer getting in his face everywhere he turns.

        If you asked him if his own life were on the line, he'd probably say it was.

        Why do we want him to get away with murder? Get the ice queen and return to his job ruling the movie universe?

        We can root for anyone in the proper context. A racist prison guard whose son commits suicide, a vigilante stalking thugs in Manhattan following the death of his wife. Richard Nixon. Ebeneezer Scrooge.

        Sometimes we root for their transformation, for them to see the light of their horrible ways and return to the fold redeemed. If the Grinch can return those presents to Whoville, there's hope for all of us.

        If Jules in "Pulp Fiction" at least attempts to be the shepherd, rising above his anger and letting that couple take his wallet instead of murdering them like he did Ringo, there's hope for all of us.

        But that's not the case with the "Player". There is no redemption, only victory in the jungle that is Hollywood for Griffin Mill. That's a testament to great storytelling. His conscience was ultimately what almost led to his undoing. Wondering whether or not making movies and talking about them with all the other more relevant topics in the world almost led to his professional demise.

        His life was out of balance because of that bout of conscience. By the end he realizes he doesn't have one. And thus proved himself to be the player.


        There's a Jekyll and a Hyde in all of us. We make conscious decisions which one to let rule our actions. Bond and Javier Bardem's villain in "Skyfall" are as Mark Kermode said yesterday in his BBC podcast two halves of a whole. To simply disavow or disown the selfish impulses of Hyde, is really to me denying our own humanity.

        Those impulses exist. Creating mayhem in a world that sometimes seems indifferent to our plight is a natural instinct, one which many teenagers embrace. So bad boys and bad girls will always be the stuff of compelling fiction.

        Or if its simply an incarnation of the Grim Reaper, like Michael Myers in "Halloween", that's compelling for another reason. Watching Death walk around punishing teens for promiscuity and leaving children unattended isn't the same as watching a real human being acting on his Hyde impulses. But it's interesting nonetheless.
        Last edited by halloweenjak; 10-27-2012, 05:31 AM.

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        • #64
          Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

          nmstevens Right -- start off with a view of him as simply a selfish, conniving etc..

          Is that really the optimal way to go about building this guy?

          Or MacBeth, who is also both villain and protagonist.

          Or taking a huge step sideways, someone like Henry, in Henry, Portrait of a Serial Killer, or the Rebecca deMornay character in The Hand that Rocks the Cradle, or the Daniel Plainview character in There Will Be Blood.
          I think in those examples, you have a crazy person (from what I can remember about Henry...although any serial killer could easily be diagnosed as antisocial which by definition would give them a "pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others"); Hand That Rocks the Cradle, you have a selfish person; and a very selfish/greedy person in There Will be Blood.

          Of course the idea is simplistic and it's not a case in every story, but the core of most villains vs. most heroes is that the villain will stop at nothing to get what they want and they only care about themselves, while the hero puts others before himself. And, again, I'm talking strictly in the context of hero vs. villain and not in the context of protag vs. antag, which can take on a gazillion different scenarios.

          You bring up good points, as always, but I'm boring myself with this discussion, which means I'm no doubt boring others, so I probably need to move on.
          On Twitter @DeadManSkipping

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          • #65
            Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

            HAND THAT ROCKS THE CRADLE - Annabella accuses her doctor of fondling her, Anabella's husband presses charges, the doctor kills himself...

            And the doctor's pregnant wife goes into shock and loses her baby.

            So the doctor's pregnant wife, DeMornay, tracks down the woman who ruined her life and caused her to lose her baby and... takes her baby. And her husband. And ruins *her* life. Completely motivated, and maybe even justified (except her doctor husband *did* fondle Anabella).

            The good ones, the ones you remember - usually had good motivations for what they did and thought they were right... and the films give us compelling reasons to believe that they might be right.

            - Bill
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            • #66
              Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

              DUEL, 1971.

              All threat. No motivation.
              Story Structure 1
              Story Structure 2
              Story Structure 3

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              • #67
                Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                An antag's motivation and or, character traits for me are built with "whatever serves the story." Pretty simplistic but that's always what pops into my head when I'm faced with "choices."

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                • #68
                  Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                  LAW ABIDING CITIZEN - Gerald Butler commits ghastly crimes to retaliate against a legal system that botched the prosecution of the men who slaughtered his family. What's interesting about the character is that the film makes it clear that he's at least partly right to feel the way he does, even if his revenge spree ends up going way beyond any kind of reasonable retaliation.

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                  • #69
                    Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                    Originally posted by Staircaseghost View Post
                    Chigurh kills by coin toss not for pleasure, but out of metaphysical necessity.

                    "I got here the same way the coin did."

                    There is no purpose or meaning to our deaths, only a universe of blind, pitiless indifference. His character is an anthropomorphism of this fundamentally atheistic insight.
                    I think this is the correct reading of the character. Chigurh represents the idea that the world is random and meaningless. You can die just because you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or because the coin fell the wrong way. This is in keeping with the final fate of the character, a certain event that happens completely out of nowhere.

                    People who have this sort of nihilistic outlook tend to take a lot of pleasure in smashing the illusions, so to speak, of people who don't share this view. So that could be his motivation right there. The coin flipping thing is his way of sadistically forcing other people to participate in his nihilism.

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                    • #70
                      Re: Forteans Don't Really Believe In "Evil"...

                      Originally posted by Mr. Earth View Post
                      So in respect to that, if you take out the motivations and goals of the "villain," all you're really left with is a character that has about as much depth and development as the shark does in Jaws.
                      I don't agree that is the case with all antagonists, but I'd be curious to also know who thinks the shark in "Jaws" is not a satisfying "villain."

                      Both kinds can make their case, in my opinion.

                      Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                      What makes him a great villain is that he is doing what he thinks is right - and that makes him believable and 3D... and more frightening.
                      To me, that just makes him more tragic and morally misguided, not necessarily more frightening or unsettling.

                      Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
                      Every story is not about selfless hero vs. selfish villain. In fact, most stories are not.
                      Agreed.

                      Originally posted by halloweenjak View Post
                      There's a Jekyll and a Hyde in all of us. We make conscious decisions which one to let rule our actions. Bond and Javier Bardem's villain in "Skyfall" are as Mark Kermode said yesterday in his BBC podcast two halves of a whole. To simply disavow or disown the selfish impulses of Hyde, is really to me denying our own humanity.

                      Those impulses exist. Creating mayhem in a world that sometimes seems indifferent to our plight is a natural instinct, one which many teenagers embrace. So bad boys and bad girls will always be the stuff of compelling fiction.

                      Or if its simply an incarnation of the Grim Reaper, like Michael Myers in "Halloween", that's compelling for another reason. Watching Death walk around punishing teens for promiscuity and leaving children unattended isn't the same as watching a real human being acting on his Hyde impulses. But it's interesting nonetheless.
                      Although I do think Michael Myers is a bit more complex than just a walking incarnation or metaphor for death as I do think some personality or unique psychological "ticks" show through, nicely made points all around.

                      Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                      The good ones, the ones you remember - usually had good motivations for what they did and thought they were right... and the films give us compelling reasons to believe that they might be right.

                      - Bill
                      To me, if I can get behind the villain just as much as the protagonist(s), it might make the story more interesting or engaging in a certain sense depending on how it's handled but that doesn't automatically make the villain(s) better or more affective for me.

                      Originally posted by Timmy View Post
                      DUEL, 1971.

                      All threat. No motivation.
                      Indeed.

                      Originally posted by MrZero View Post
                      I think this is the correct reading of the character. Chigurh represents the idea that the world is random and meaningless. You can die just because you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or because the coin fell the wrong way. This is in keeping with the final fate of the character, a certain event that happens completely out of nowhere.

                      People who have this sort of nihilistic outlook tend to take a lot of pleasure in smashing the illusions, so to speak, of people who don't share this view. So that could be his motivation right there. The coin flipping thing is his way of sadistically forcing other people to participate in his nihilism.
                      But doesn't that all suggest he might also be enjoying or taking some pleasure in forcing others to participate in his demonstrations of nihilism and is not just a completely empty vessel for some metaphor or philosophy?

                      I think it does or could and would prefer that, otherwise again that entire character (and, to a not small degree, the movie itself) just becomes much less interesting for me.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                        "It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."

                        Chigurh and the T800 have a lot more in common than you think.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                          Originally posted by Why One View Post
                          "It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."
                          This is my second favorite movie quote of all time.

                          That is all.
                          Chicks Who Script podcast

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                            Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                            This is my second favorite movie quote of all time.

                            That is all.
                            Well now I have to know what your first is!
                            Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                              Originally posted by NoirDigits View Post
                              Well now I have to know what your first is!
                              No, don't open that! It's an alien planet! Is there air? You don't know!"

                              Good old Lobsterhead Saris, also a good villain.
                              Chicks Who Script podcast

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                              • #75
                                Re: Villains: Better that They Don't Believe They Are "Evil?"

                                Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                                No, don't open that! It's an alien planet! Is there air? You don't know!"

                                Good old Lobsterhead Saris, also a good villain.
                                Galaxy Quest? I'm swooning.
                                Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

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