Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

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  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

    Originally posted by haroldhecuba View Post
    We've all seen what happens when someone posts pages here and then has to argue about the feedback. Now think what would happen if untalented writers were given the opportunity to "ask questions" with the reviewer.
    This is precisely why an agency I used to read for made certain that the reader's name did not appear anywhere on the coverage comments. They'd had some incidents where angry writers tracked down the reader's home phone number and called them to complain about a review.

    There is also possibly a concern that if the readers names were public, some writers might contact them before submitting a script, either to bribe them or to "just ask questions about what you'd like to see in a script."

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    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

      Guys, I know it would be easier for all of you if creative evaluation was like math and there was always only ONE possible answer, but it just doesn't work that way.

      Take a look at Rotten Tomatoes sometime. There are some movies that many respected reviewers love, while other respected reviews absolutely hate. If you're going to rail against the fact that not everyone appreciates the same material - or appreciates it at the same magnitude, then the creative arts are probably not for you.

      And Michael made a good point. There are BRILLIANT scripts that are almost universally hailed as "excellent." Those are rare, extraordinarily rare. From there, the field narrows to "Decent" and "Not Terrible" and that's where you're going to have some reviewers maybe say, "I can take the leap of faith that this will work" and others who say, "I've seen these scripts fail before. Does the world need another one of these?"

      It's not a binary "Brilliant/Terrible" dichotomy. There's a whole lot of writing out there that might not be outright bad, but doesn't bring anything new to the table either. Think of them as the script equivalent of the latest CBS sitcom featuring a fat guy and his impossibly hot wife.

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      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

        Originally posted by figment View Post
        I think this is more troubling than inspiring, though. And I think that's why people are questioning the scoring. There's a big difference between a 3 and an 8. The whole point of the site is that scripts are vetted and scored so that producers/managers can find high scoring scripts that also coincide with their specific taste.

        The vast canyon between the different scores goes past being subjective and into being a crapshoot. If it were scored a 3 and a 4, fine. If it were scored a 6 and an 8, also fine. The fact that one reader gave it a 3 and another an 8 means there isn't agreement within the site of how to score.

        Not everyone is going to want to shell out another fifty bucks for an additional read after already paying 75 for the first one + one month on the site.
        I'm a numbers nerd and was curious about this, and here's what I have to report:

        The script that received a 3 and an 8 is an outlier, an extreme one. Literally the greatest gap between any two scores on the same script we've yet seen.

        Of the 26 scripts (which is, let's just admit, a terribly small sample size) that have received multiple reviews at this time, only 4 have scores where the average deviation from the mean is more than 1.5. There are more scripts that have identical ratings from 2 or more readers than have a gap of more than 3 between their scores.

        On average, the average deviation from the mean is 1. In layman's terms, the average gap between two scores on the same script is 2 points, comfortably within reasonable subjectivity in my view (and based on figment's comments re: a 6 and an 8, his too).

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        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

          I actually find it encouraging to know of a case where a script received a 3 and an 8. It clearly demonstrates that each reader is approaching the script completely fresh, rather than merely accessing a prior reader's coverage and being influenced by that score. Users of the site can thus be reasonably confident that each read is separate and distinct.

          As for the subjectivity issue, I made the point earlier in this thread about how similar this situation is to movie reviews. Just look at the current thread on this forum about Bond films. Some call On Her Majesty's Secret Service the worst-ever Bond (which, I think, is about right), while others consider it the best of all Bond movies. 1/10 or 10/10. Same movie.

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          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

            Originally posted by karsten View Post
            I actually find it encouraging to know of a case where a script received a 3 and an 8. It clearly demonstrates that each reader is approaching the script completely fresh, rather than merely accessing a prior reader's coverage and being influenced by that score. Users of the site can thus be reasonably confident that each read is separate and distinct.
            Our readers are completely unaware of previous ratings/evaluations of a script unless they have been made visible by the author of that script. They are further encouraged NOT to view those ratings prior to conducting their read and completing their evaluation.

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            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

              Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
              Our readers are completely unaware of previous ratings/evaluations of a script unless they have been made visible by the author of that script. They are further encouraged NOT to view those ratings prior to conducting their read and completing their evaluation.
              An excellent policy. Better that there be potential disparities in grading than having one reader influence another.

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              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                Yeah -- off topic but I'll reply.

                Originally posted by haroldhecuba View Post
                Slight tangent: Have you finished anything lately, SC?

                HH
                I've actually taken a break from all three scripts in progress. I'm working on a novella; sort of a coming of age thriller roughly based on personal experiences. I've been very productive on this and enjoying the break.

                The big-budget future-set script -- I don't like where the second half of act two went -- too same old same old. I have to really do a major overhaul. I'm really pushing my genre limits with it and if I could work with a co-writer I probably should. But when it comes to writing I'm really a lone wolf.

                The western, sort of sprawling -- I love the story but I know it won't go anywhere. Haven't finished it. Considering turning it into a novel.

                The Heist -- likely the most commercial, and loosely based on an old serial now in the public domain, doesn't inspire me which brings me to ...

                ... slightly back on topic. I've come to peace with the fact that the stories I'm most passionate about are not what the industry is looking to buy.

                I think we should all do such an assessment before sending out scripts, anywhere. All else aside --we have to aks ourselves is there a market for our scripts. Got to be honest with self about that.

                Originally posted by halloweenjak View Post
                Hey SC.

                Now that Harolds once again digging up history from the scripts pages, tell us honestly, which one did you prefer, mine or his?

                Because he's talking about untalented writers griping.
                In all fairness, Harold's two posted scripts are not genres I usually like. I've also read his other stuff and know how good he is, therefore, for both reasons, I was tougher on him than I was on you. I also know he can take critique very well.

                I liked your story premise -- which probably isn't good news because, lately, it seems I tend to like stuff that would make better novels than films.

                This - again - relates to the "Is it commercial?" issue.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                  This thread is starting to turn into the Winklevoss's visit to Larry Summers office in the "Social Network".

                  I think Michael B's post is the most relevant.

                  You're getting a shot at Pro Readers. It's unprecedented to get a shot at a read with these people. You get to jump the gate for 25-75 bucks? Make your shot count.

                  Crap, I read scripts I wrote a year ago and cringe, or feel that I could have done a lot better. If anything, maybe people's experience with Franklin's site will push people to either quit or keep at it and push harder.

                  If he breaks a few writers a year with this site, it's worth it.

                  I don't think his price point is overwhelming for what he's offering. I've spent so much money on software, books, etc. that the start up fee on this seems
                  reasonable.
                  He who laughs last is mentally slow

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                  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                    Curious to see what the BL3.0 experience would be like, and not all that concerned with the $100, I put up a script I'm happy with, bought two reads, and hoped for the best.

                    I just got my first review, which I'll copy below.

                    Premise: 5
                    Plot: 4
                    Characters: 7
                    Dialogue: 7
                    Overall: 5

                    Era: Present

                    Locations: Suburban Interiors and Exteriors, New York City, Car Interiors and Exteriors, Seedy Motel Interiors,

                    Budget: Low

                    Genre: Comedy

                    Genre: 94

                    Logline:
                    Drowning in gambling debt, a degenerate agrees to sell drugs for his bookie but when things go sideways he must figure a way out of the messy situation - unfortunately, his best laid plans go even worse!

                    Strenghts:
                    This is a very funny, very vulgar script with several laugh-out-loud moments. The characters are strong, especially the bookie/half-brother whose full-throttled, unhinged nature would offer a great opportunity for an actor looking to play against type for laughs. The story has a wonderfully - and surprisingly - sweet twist in the third act that very nearly justifies all the awful things the protagonist does.

                    Weaknesses:
                    Tonally, the story is all over the place, bouncing between vulgar comedy and dark drama. The sweet third act twist, in which the protagonist proves himself to be a salesman, is immediately undercut in the next sequence when his partner is murdered. There are a few obvious plot holes, in which the characters behave in service of the story instead of acting organically. If the bookie hates the protagonist, it seems bizarre that he would trust him with a $10,000 drug deal. For much of the first act, the protagonist is completely irredeemable, especially when he starts making the same mistakes - namely, gambling - that got him into trouble in the first place.

                    Prospects
                    The writing is sharp and very funny and fully embraces it's R-rated tone but the story's pitch black twists and turns would likely limit the potential audience and, in it's current form, there are still story issues that need to be worked out before further consideration.
                    Seems really fair to me.

                    I just wanted to show a different viewpoint of experience with this. I like my script more than a 5, but obviously it's subjective and I know that it's certainly not a 10. It's a fun, quick story that isn't for everyone. And that's fine.

                    Thanks Franklin, this turned out better than I thought it would, and even with just a so-so score I'm happy with the process.

                    If anyone with access is interested in reading for themselves, here's the link: https://blcklst.com/members/script/4430

                    EDIT: Also, just for some of the people arguing about all of this -- the notes I got here were almost identical to the notes I've gotten from professional screenwriters who were kind enough to take the time to read it and respond. They enjoyed it, and they thought I had a lot of potential but that I wasn't there yet, and thus neither was my script. And that's great. A lot of the people arguing here should spend less time trying to convince everyone they're an unheralded genius and more time working at becoming a better writer. It's work.
                    Last edited by Matt L; 10-27-2012, 05:12 PM.

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                    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                      Franklin says, "There are more scripts that have identical ratings from 2 or more readers than have a gap of more than 3 between their scores.-

                      -- This analysis is good to know.

                      I assume, from what Franklin mentioned previously, that the readers are close as far as having the same experience and knowledge, and they are reading scripts in the genre that they would rush out to see at the theater, so you'd expect their scoring and take on what's working and not working would be somewhat close to similar. Of course, not exactly identical, but not out of the ball park.

                      When I seek feedback from pro reviewers, I use 3 reviewers. Not because I'm looking for better odds to get a softie for a consider. It's because even though they'll all be close in having the same take on the majority of the material, they'll also give different insights on some of the aspects of the story. For example, one might give a good insight on how to improve a character, another plot, etc.

                      I've never had an occasion where one reviewer loves it and one hates it.

                      This is why when a member mentioned he had pro readers, etc. score his script highly, and he received a 1 from BL -- a one -- this was suspect. Not saying because of his previous feedback his script should be an 8. I have no idea. I haven't read his script, but I do know what a 1 means from a scale, not from 1-3, or 1-5, but 1-10.

                      Franklin, what's the criteria/guideline for a reader to give a writer a 1 in say plot for example?

                      I ask because a writer works hard to make his script the best it can be, so if there are any readers that don't have a good sense on the ratings, I would like to see that it's taken seriously and have something done about it.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                        For anyone interested, I've recently received word that a writer whose work was essentially unseen outside his circle of immediate friends prior to its exposure on the new Black List site had a meeting at a major agency on Friday wherein he was offered representation. He had a call with another as well and has been contacted by two major management companies and will be meeting with them next week. I actually expect things to get a bit crazier for him next week as I imagine most people will read his script this weekend as part of their weekend read.

                        As much as I would love to share specifics about the writer's name and his script, out of respect for his privacy, I will not be doing so. I'm sure some of you will allege that this is all fiction. That won't change my stand on protecting the writer's privacy. I assure you, however, that it is fact, and stake my reputation on it.

                        Lastly, to be very clear, the writer deserves the credit for his success. It's the quality of his work that made these people want to meet him and offer him representation. The Black List simply delivered it to those people in a way that made them read it with an urgency and seriousness with which they might not have otherwise.

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                        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                          This is excellent news! If the writer is lurking here, congratulations to her or him.

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                          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                            Originally posted by michaelb View Post
                            Do you know the phrase, "one bad apple spoils the bunch"? Looks at querying in reverse. 99 bad apples spoil it for the one decent one.

                            Best,

                            Michael
                            Yeah, I do get it, and I honestly do think it would be tough sorting through the countless queries and deciding whether even to read them or just delete without opening.

                            Speaking for myself, one of the toughest realities for writers is that you never even know what happened to your query or script unless a rep or producer/DOD/CE actually says to you that they read it and passed. I never query the same person twice on one script, but hell, I've read stories here where the same people were queried three or four times on the same project only to request a read on the fourth! I mean, who would have thought? And most of us have had the experience of following up on a read request months later, only to find out, with apologies by the recipient, that the script still hadn't been read yet. So yeah, you never know, it's incredibly frustrating but that's the way it goes.

                            But thanks for sharing, Michaelb.

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                            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                              Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                              Franklin says, "There are more scripts that have identical ratings from 2 or more readers than have a gap of more than 3 between their scores.-

                              -- This analysis is good to know.

                              I assume, from what Franklin mentioned previously, that the readers are close as far as having the same experience and knowledge, and they are reading scripts in the genre that they would rush out to see at the theater, so you'd expect their scoring and take on what's working and not working would be somewhat close to similar. Of course, not exactly identical, but not out of the ball park.

                              When I seek feedback from pro reviewers, I use 3 reviewers. Not because I'm looking for better odds to get a softie for a consider. It's because even though they'll all be close in having the same take on the majority of the material, they'll also give different insights on some of the aspects of the story. For example, one might give a good insight on how to improve a character, another plot, etc.

                              I've never had an occasion where one reviewer loves it and one hates it.

                              This is why when a member mentioned he had pro readers, etc. score his script highly, and he received a 1 from BL -- a one -- this was suspect. Not saying because of his previous feedback his script should be an 8. I have no idea. I haven't read his script, but I do know what a 1 means from a scale, not from 1-3, or 1-5, but 1-10.

                              Franklin, what's the criteria/guideline for a reader to give a writer a 1 in say plot for example?

                              I ask because a writer works hard to make his script the best it can be, so if there are any readers that don't have a good sense on the ratings, I would like to see that it's taken seriously and have something done about it.
                              I think that there are some gross misunderstandings about what our 1-10 scale represents. Think of it less as a scale from illiterate to good and more as an indication of how likely our reader would be to recommend it to someone else in the industry they respected and whose time they wouldn't want to waste.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                                For anyone interested, I've recently received word that a writer whose work was essentially unseen outside his circle of immediate friends prior to its exposure on the new Black List site had a meeting at a major agency on Friday wherein he was offered representation.
                                Excellent. I concede to Geoff -- his prediction was right, I was wrong. In this case I'm happy to be wrong.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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