The Ethics of Reading

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  • Re: The Ethics of Reading

    Originally posted by Chief View Post
    OMG, now I think you're one that's trolling.

    We've all accepted that REVIEWING SCRIPTS or sending scripts on NEWSLETTERS TO THOUSANDS of PEOPLE IS WRONG.

    And I'm not stupid, I can read your subtext a la 'Chief, you will never make it, so stop messing about' but that's alright, I'm not in this to prove anything.

    Read Emily's last post to see what the discussion is all about.
    Dude, I deleted my post.

    There was no subtext. I was angry and so I was absolutely tossing you on the fire. But not just you, everyone on this board who likes to must troll but doesn't take writing seriously.

    Again, my overall point was...

    People on the internet are too irresponsible to have scripts period.

    Comment


    • Re: The Ethics of Reading

      Great post Botti.

      I wish I hadn't deleted mine now.

      To summarize my now deleted post: the internet is herpes.

      Comment


      • Re: The Ethics of Reading

        I think it's about time we start sending out physical, printed copies of our scripts again. Bring Back the Brads!

        Comment


        • Re: The Ethics of Reading

          Originally posted by TheMonkeyofSpec View Post
          I think it's about time we start sending out physical, printed copies of our scripts again. Bring Back the Brads!
          Totally agree.

          Comment


          • Re: The Ethics of Reading

            Originally posted by TheMonkeyofSpec View Post
            I think it's about time we start sending out physical, printed copies of our scripts again. Bring Back the Brads!
            I've been thinking about putting icons of brads into my PDFs, just to start debates over how many virtual-brads is standard.

            Comment


            • Re: The Ethics of Reading

              Originally posted by magnet360 View Post
              There is no way that going into a record store in the 1970s and smuggling a record into your jacket and not paying, is the same as downloading music in 2013. They are clearly two different things and the modern populace instinctively knows this difference.
              I'm curious what you think that difference is.

              Comment


              • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                Originally posted by Anagram View Post
                I'm curious what you think that difference is.
                Downloading music isn't stealing, it's sharing.
                I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

                Comment


                • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                  Originally posted by magnet360 View Post
                  This is why the issue is confusing. You've disproved the point you tried to make with your example.

                  Think about it:

                  I go into the free section of my ibooks store on the internet. I download Edgar Allen Poe stories volume one. It's free from project Gutenberg or whoever. It's legit and legal. Then I go to Barnes and Noble and notice they are selling Edgar Allen Poe stories volume one and expecting me to pay for it. Confusing? Why are people buying this?

                  I go to the screenplay section in Barnes and Noble and there is a book with the Preston Sturges script "Sullivan's Travels". I go online and the script is provided for free to download. Confused?

                  Is the screenplay example the same situation as my book example? Or are you saying I'm stealing when I download the script? Do you see how similar they are and how most people would take the leap and try to find it online for free. Not bad people stealing, but just common sense. The times we live in don't make this stuff obvious.

                  I walk outside Barnes and Noble and there's a guy on the street in Soho with a table selling scripts: Goodfellas, Rocky, The Godfather, etc. They have bright colored covers and brads -- very old school. But he wants me to buy them. Am I stealing when I get those scripts online for free?

                  I don't understand your point that screenplays are being sold in Barnes and Noble.
                  So, because they are in the public domain or the owner has provided them free for download then everything should be free? Are you stealing when you get copyrighted material online - yes if the owner doesn't want you to have it.

                  Just because someone is selling them on the street and may have also obtained illegally doesn't give you the right to do the same.

                  Because things are online doesn't make them free - otherwise we'd all find our bank accounts emptied, it's not physical cash right, it's just common sense that my account is online then someone will try to find it online and take what's in it.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                    Originally posted by Deion22 View Post
                    This is my problem with that rational. I have reps. Managers and agents. I have not sold a script yet. I have projects with major producers and one has an actor attached. But I have not sold. So am I in the industry? That definition is very vague to me.

                    I once was an unrepped writer, I learned how to get better by reading scripts. I believe reading scripts is a tool all writers can use. I think NO ONE should publicly share scripts or review them. That is wrong.

                    But if I condemn you SC11, who I have a lot of respect for, because you read spec scripts. I'm full of sh*t and am a hypocrite. I was where you are. I've been there.

                    This argument has dovetailed into something else. NO ONE is a crook for reading scripts. That's an unfair label. And shouldn't be used. My script has been read by tons of people I don't know. That's the price of doing business. All I can ask is DON'T SHARE it in a public setting and don't review my script publicly.

                    I've been where a lot of people on this board have been. I'm no better then them. And when I finally get that sale ( 2013 *fingers crossed*), I still won't be better then them.

                    I can't be hypocritical. Because I have done the same.

                    I think people should act professional, though. If you read scripts keep your mouth shut. And learn. DON'T PUBLICLY review the scripts or make them available in any public settings. That is the courtesy writers are owed.
                    There's the pre-John August v. Script Shadow/Fox Lawsuit Era and the post-John August v. Script Shadow/Fox Lawsuit Era.

                    In the pre era, aspiring writers were skipping through the cyber fields of the internet plucking specs to enjoy and discuss unaware of the damage it could do. Unaware that spec writers and pro writers, some who were/are members here, could find their industry prospects compromised by the practice of script traders. Ignorance was our excuse at that time.

                    And then came the famous August blog post about Carson which marks the post era. And we were educated about the downside of public reviews. Nearly a year after that, our own PJ was dragged through a lawsuit. And we were further educated that, even when there is no public discussion, simply compiling copyrighted scripts, as PJ did in her library, violates copyright law.

                    No longer could we claim ignorance. We now know the practice is against the law. To continue the practice, in the two to three ensuing years, is, in my opinion, knowingly breaking the law. And I believe that is considered a criminal act.

                    As for your mention of me reading specs, I'm not sure if you're hinting I've asked you for specs. I have not asked anyone to send me specs. And I've never traded scripts. Even though PJ is my friend, I think I visited her library twice to look for produced scripts of films many years old. And since this issue exploded back with the August blog article, I have not read any specs. Period.

                    In the pre-era, I did read a couple of Blacklist scripts that were on a link provided on deadline.com at that time. Also in the distant pre-era (prior to the writer's strike), my then-rep sent me four specs to read to better understand what he was looking for from me. Even so, in all the time I've been at this craft (on and off, too many years), I think I'd read less than 10 specs total in the era preceeding my awareness that doing so is copyright infringement.

                    The vast majority of scripts I read to educate myself are produced scripts in the genres I'm drawn to work in.

                    Occasionally, when other aspiring writers ask me for notes, I read their specs which they personally send to me with their full permission.

                    My main point is this: We now all know where the boundaries are and if we continue to violate the boundaries by reading specs in consideration of in-dev scripts there's really no excuse or rationalization that holds up to scrutiny.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                      There's the pre-John August v. Script Shadow/Fox Lawsuit Era and the post-John August v. Script Shadow/Fox Lawsuit Era.

                      In the pre era, aspiring writers were skipping through the cyber fields of the internet plucking specs to enjoy and discuss unaware of the damage it could do. Unaware that spec writers and pro writers, some who were/are members here, could find their industry prospects compromised by the practice of script traders. Ignorance was our excuse at that time.

                      And then came the famous August blog post about Carson which marks the post era. And we were educated about the downside of public reviews. Nearly a year after that, our own PJ was dragged through a lawsuit. And we were further educated that, even when there is no public discussion, simply compiling copyrighted scripts, as PJ did in her library, violates copyright law.

                      No longer could we claim ignorance. We now know the practice is against the law. To continue the practice, in the two to three ensuing years, is, in my opinion, knowingly breaking the law. And I believe that is considered a criminal act.

                      As for your mention of me reading specs, I'm not sure if you're hinting I've asked you for specs. I have not asked anyone to send me specs. And I've never traded scripts. Even though PJ is my friend, I think I visited her library twice to look for produced scripts of films many years old. And since this issue exploded back with the August blog article, I have not read any specs. Period.

                      In the pre-era, I did read a couple of Blacklist scripts that were on a link provided on deadline.com at that time. Also in the distant pre-era (prior to the writer's strike), my then-rep sent me four specs to read to better understand what he was looking for from me. Even so, in all the time I've been at this craft (on and off, too many years), I think I'd read less than 10 specs total in the era preceeding my awareness that doing so is copyright infringement.

                      The vast majority of scripts I read to educate myself are produced scripts in the genres I'm drawn to work in.

                      Occasionally, when other aspiring writers ask me for notes, I read their specs which they personally send to me with their full permission.

                      My main point is this: We now all know where the boundaries are and if we continue to violate the boundaries there's really no excuse or rationalization that holds up to scrutiny.

                      I wasn't talking about you, I worded it poorly. This will be my final response to this thread, It's worn on me. If you read any script you are committing a criminal act. Because you don't OWN them. Produced or non produced. According to your assertion. I just want you to be clear, going off what you said. YOU READ ANY SCRIPT it is a criminal act unless the studio has given it to you, or the writer has given you permission. Doesn't matter how old it is. You can't use the excuse the script is old. You have no right to read it.

                      Just write great scripts guys. I'm not hear to judge anyone. Though there a lot of hypocrites in this thread. I'm not talking about you SC111.

                      And good luck to aspiring writers. Just try and get better with every script.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                        The title of this thread is, 'The Ethics of Reading.'

                        This implies that there are moral underpinnings as to how one goes about reading scripts.

                        It all comes down to intellectual property. Whether you are a musician, artist, writer or even a programmer, if you create something and want to sell it, you need to have your IP protected.

                        If a bunch of anonymous people feel entitled to stuff because they can access it for free, imo, that violates the ethics of the industry and the artists who create stuff for our consumption. They are nothing but IP pirates.

                        Ham's script is his proprietary IP; thus, by passing it around and disrespecting his wishes, you are making him work without a paycheck. You are screwing up his game plan that he and his team have put together. How can he build heat for his script if everyone has access to it?

                        If someone emailed me or PM'd me the link to his script, the first thing I would do is notify Ham that is script is being passed around. That is the ethical thing to do. If we are a brotherhood then we should have each other's back.

                        But I feel like we're just a group of assholes who feel entitled to read whatever we want for completely selfish reasons. There is no value, or justification, for people who download music and scripts for free. Yes, there are exceptions, as noted by true industry insiders, but for the rest of us, we have no business screwing it up for our fellow writers.

                        And to me this is why Chris Eads is a cancer. We used to be able to trade scripts here on DDP before he screwed it up for everyone. All because he wants to feel important and like a big shot.

                        You want to be a big shot, write a script that shows how badass you are.

                        Otherwise, you're just a poser.
                        The best way out is always through. - Robert Frost

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                          Originally posted by Deion22 View Post
                          I wasn't talking about you, I worded it poorly. This will be my final response to this thread, It's worn on me. If you read any script you are committing a criminal act. Because you don't OWN them. Produced or non produced. According to your assertion. I just want you to be clear, going off what you said. YOU READ ANY SCRIPT it is a criminal act unless the studio has given it to you, or the writer has given you permission. Doesn't matter how old it is. You can't use the excuse the script is old. You have no right to read it.

                          Just write great scripts guys. I'm not hear to judge anyone. Though there a lot of hypocrites in this thread. I'm not talking about you SC111.

                          And good luck to aspiring writers. Just try and get better with every script.

                          Thanks for clarifying. And may I add this-- I don't think I've read any produced scripts in over two years, maybe three years. Why? Geoff Alexander said it well in a previous post -- after a while, reading script after script after script begins to muddy the waters in terms of finding your own voice, your own POV, your own ability to deliver something fresh.

                          No matter how many scripts you read to educate yourself in the early stages of your development as a writer, it eventually comes down to you and the blank page and the moment you must decide if you have something of value to dramatize for the screen.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                            Originally posted by magnet360 View Post
                            This is why the issue is confusing. You've disproved the point you tried to make with your example.

                            Think about it:

                            I go into the free section of my ibooks store on the internet. I download Edgar Allen Poe stories volume one. It's free from project Gutenberg or whoever. It's legit and legal. Then I go to Barnes and Noble and notice they are selling Edgar Allen Poe stories volume one and expecting me to pay for it. Confusing? Why are people buying this?

                            I go to the screenplay section in Barnes and Noble and there is a book with the Preston Sturges script "Sullivan's Travels". I go online and the script is provided for free to download. Confused?

                            Is the screenplay example the same situation as my book example? Or are you saying I'm stealing when I download the script? Do you see how similar they are and how most people would take the leap and try to find it online for free. Not bad people stealing, but just common sense. The times we live in don't make this stuff obvious.

                            I walk outside Barnes and Noble and there's a guy on the street in Soho with a table selling scripts: Goodfellas, Rocky, The Godfather, etc. They have bright colored covers and brads -- very old school. But he wants me to buy them. Am I stealing when I get those scripts online for free?

                            I don't understand your point that screenplays are being sold in Barnes and Noble.
                            So, I'm assuming that you are a writer or are trying to become one. And I presume that you would like to be paid for your storytelling ability. So, would you be okay with someone at a publishing company "passing around" the unpublished manuscript of your novel to their friends? And then would you be okay with someone putting it up online so that everyone on the planet can download it for free?

                            I find it really incredible that people who want to become writers, presumably paid writers, would be confused about what Intellectual Property is and why it is important to protect artists.

                            Yes, you are stealing if you download other people's work without paying for it.

                            The guy who is trying to sell you those scripts out on the street--he is stealing too, and then he is trying to make money by repackaging stolen goods and selling them to you.

                            And, yes, if anyone out there is downloading Intellectual Property without paying for it, and without the writer's permission, they are stealing too.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                              A good pal of mine put the link to Media Fire for the Black List scripts on a public newsfeed/timeline on FB. I told her to take it down, and she did. I know her intentions were good, but it's not enough to say that since the link is out there, it's okay to use it. Or that the writers should know that if they hit the Black List, their scripts are going to be passed like champagne on New Year's Eve. There are a couple of scripts I'd love to read that are on the BL, but it's not right without the writers express permission.
                              Last edited by LIMAMA; 12-28-2012, 09:41 AM. Reason: me
                              http://www.pjmcilvaine.com/

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Ethics of Reading

                                Originally posted by magnet360 View Post
                                This is why the issue is confusing. You've disproved the point you tried to make with your example.

                                Think about it:

                                I go into the free section of my ibooks store on the internet. I download Edgar Allen Poe stories volume one. It's free from project Gutenberg or whoever. It's legit and legal. Then I go to Barnes and Noble and notice they are selling Edgar Allen Poe stories volume one and expecting me to pay for it. Confusing? Why are people buying this?

                                I go to the screenplay section in Barnes and Noble and there is a book with the Preston Sturges script "Sullivan's Travels". I go online and the script is provided for free to download. Confused?

                                Is the screenplay example the same situation as my book example? Or are you saying I'm stealing when I download the script? Do you see how similar they are and how most people would take the leap and try to find it online for free. Not bad people stealing, but just common sense. The times we live in don't make this stuff obvious.

                                I walk outside Barnes and Noble and there's a guy on the street in Soho with a table selling scripts: Goodfellas, Rocky, The Godfather, etc. They have bright colored covers and brads -- very old school. But he wants me to buy them. Am I stealing when I get those scripts online for free?

                                I don't understand your point that screenplays are being sold in Barnes and Noble.
                                I don't see how it is confusing.

                                In example 1, a book that is public domain is free to read on your e-reader in various forms. If you want to buy a hard copy, to always have on your book shelf, then you have to pay for it.

                                In example 2, the studio has published the script for you to buy so you can read it, either because you love the film or want to study the script. You go online and download it illegally thus taking money away from the copyright holder. OR, the studio has posted it online for free, at which point you again are paying to buy the hard copy version.

                                That fact is, John Doe posting a script that he doesn't have the right to be posting on the internet is wrong.

                                Best,

                                MB
                                twitter.com/mbotti

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