What to Say to Writers...?

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  • #16
    Re: What to Say to Writers...?

    Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
    The primary reason for a person to write is because of the love of writing. Not for money. If scoring a huge payday is a writer's primary reason for writing, then there will be a lot of disappointed people.

    So, if a person writes screenplays for the love of it, why would it be necessary for me to tell this person you suck as a writer -- please stop!
    Is there really anyone out there who loves writing screenplays just to have screenplays? They're means to an end. If you're writing one, you want to see it produced. If they're never produced, you're disappointed.

    But putting that aside - I think telling people they suck is a kindness. It should be mandatory for everyone to hear that when they're thinking of getting into screenwriting. Anyone who hears it and quits can't put up with the rejection they'll face along the way. Anyone who's determined to do it anyway has a better chance of having what it takes.

    Every time I pop my head above ground here or on Twitter, there's bound to be one or two (or a thousand) people telling me how horrible my credits are and what a shitty writer I am. I love it! Knowing that every new credit will upset people who hate me is a delicious bonus.

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    • #17
      Re: What to Say to Writers...?

      And Will - I think by and large, people who offer notes do it respectfully. I think people need to be trained how to take notes.

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      • #18
        Re: What to Say to Writers...?

        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
        And Will - I think by and large, people who offer notes do it respectfully. I think people need to be trained how to take notes.
        I hear ya on the training. Luckily film school script classes gave you a sense of what to say or not. Then when working in the real world, you gained a different/better understanding of who to say what to and when & why.

        And, yes, I think all are pretty good overall about being respectful. A couple of bad eggs now & then, I hear, but overall people try to be particularly "good" when doing it directly for a writer or through a service.

        But yes, learning to how take-in notes & feedback and work with them is so key. If you have to have a little thick skin and keep in mind that in the vast majority of cases they are at least trying to help. Plus, more than likely, their notes will be better than anything you'll hear from executives, reps, producers and so on. (For me personally, I think because I'm already so tough on myself, not much can be said to bother me. I just try to address all as best I can and as "professionally" as possible.)

        I think like some to many, I'm tougher on myself & friends than "strangers."
        Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 09-30-2020, 09:47 AM.
        Will
        Done Deal Pro
        www.donedealpro.com

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        • #19
          Re: What to Say to Writers...?

          Someone once said, "Only write if it brings you joy or makes you money."

          I know several writers who have been rejected so often that they've become bitter and resentful of the industry and writing in general. It's become a corrosive influence on their life that they keep slogging through out of some stupid fear that the "never give up on your dream" crowd will deem them a loser if they quit.

          If I meet someone who just isn't finding success, and has lost all joy in the journey, I'll advise them to take a break for a few years and recalibrate.

          But if someone is still finding joy in the process or the dream, then it isn't my place to squash that unless they specifically ask me if I think they have what it takes. And the thing is, I've been wrong before; people can grow as writers.

          But there are plenty of people who are trapped by a dream they had when they were 20, and they desperately need someone to tell them, "It's okay to say this career sucks and you want nothing to do with it anymore."

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          • #20
            Re: What to Say to Writers...?

            People putting out sub-par pages for others to read -- and getting miffed when they don't get praise -- signals to me they don't know what constitutes good writing.

            If you have no idea what's good, and what works, and why it works, how can you improve?

            My other pet peeve is the mindset that writing effectively in any discipline is easy and anyone can do it. There's little respect for the craft itself.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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            • #21
              Re: What to Say to Writers...?

              Originally posted by docgonzo View Post
              I'm of the opinion that people have to find out on their own accord. It's not up to me whether or not someone wants to write a script. What I will do is discourage them from paying for access or for script analysis, and instead encourage them to join a writers group. Maybe that helps them get better, maybe it doesn't. At least it saves their hard earned cash.

              Now, I have told writers who I like that a particular script wasn't good. That, I think, is fair game. If it's not working on any level, I think you have a responsibility to let them know.
              I read a lot of scripts. 98% of them are awful... in that group are writers I KNOW will never make it, but like DocGonzo above, it's not my call. My responsibility is to be as honest with these writers as some of the wonderful people who helped me on my way. I believe in direct honesty, combined with the things they did right. Plus a lesson of what craft is versus throwing words on a page. The importance of research to know your subject matter. Picking a premise that has an actual chance of selling if done well.

              If it's someone who's not trying, just looking for an instant gratification paycheck, that's one thing, but the lion's share of people who want to do this are, at least for the time they try, earnest about doing it right. Or wanting to do it right.

              It doesn't hurt anyone to encourage people, along with some tough love. The ones that have no chance find that out for themselves soon enough. We don't need to speed it along, IMO.
              Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 09-30-2020, 03:42 PM. Reason: Spacing

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              • #22
                Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                Encouraging your children and friends to keep on trying is one thing -- but if someone asks you for your opinion -- especially if you are a pro at this (or maybe almost a pro like some of us) -- you should give it. Do you want your doctor to say "It could be cancer, but I don't want to run tests and bum you out, so you're probably fine so don't worry about. Have fun on that ski trip."

                But to answer Will's question -- sadly being truthful and blunt only hurts the person giving the notes. Every time I was very honest to writers that were strangers or it was their first script type of deal -- they took it sooo badly. I was usually the first person to ever give them real feedback that wasn't just "wow you wrote a screenplay, i want to write one, you're the best." So most of the time, the people asking for notes -- do not know how to take notes and only can take praise. So you're wasting your time before you write one word.

                Let me put it this way, sometimes the person telling you your breathe stinks is the biggest jerk in the world and sometimes they are your best friend for having the courage to tell you the truth. Jeff Lowell is right.

                We had 3 friends in college that had terrible body odor. No joke. And no one wanted to tell them because it sucks. But we figured it out and told them in nice a way as possible but still being blunt. It was something mature like "if you want to get laid, you better use some Old Spice." Point is -- we were actually being good friends -- not jerks -- and 2 of those lovely people are married today. And all 3 smell fresh as a daisy. Using writing rules of etiquette that most writers seem to believe -- always be nice, all 3 of them would be rolling around in their own sh%t and wondering, why can't I find love?

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                • #23
                  Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                  I would never tell someone to stop writing.

                  Writing can be more than having a produced script. Writing is therapeutic to me and I'm sure many others. I do write because I want to make a living, or at the least provide income for retirement, but it is also a great coping mechanism for stress.

                  Writing a produceable screenplay can take years. Selling it can take longer.

                  I am honest. I can be blunt. I try not to mislead or "sugar coat" my real feelings. I do emphasize that I am only one opinion and they can discard every word if it doesn't fit with their vision.

                  Sometimes that must be repeated more than once.

                  I try to remember to tell them that my notes are not intended to "tell" them how to rewrite it, but rather to provide another option that illustrates what I feel might work better. They are my opinions. Nothing more.

                  Writers can be precious about their words.

                  More so, Writers can be defensive. They can tell you that everyone else loved the script. Sometimes they fail to realize that notes only have power if the writer gives them power. There is no reason to say anything other than, "thank you for your time." That is the sole expectation. Notes can take a lot of time. And as writers we all know that.

                  Sometimes notes help a writer more when they are still early in developing their skillset and craft. You never know when the "ah ha" note will hit them and suddenly they leap forward in their craft. I say that because it's happened to me at least 3-4 times.

                  Being honest and blunt is one thing. Claiming to be a "brutal reader," is another, imo, because it implies an inability to be professional and suggests you won't shy away from callus, insensitive, insulting, demeaning, and ridiculing comments. That doesn't help anyone. Ever. Worse it reinforces the idea that the reader is somehow "above" the writer, and can give the appearance of talking "down" to another writer.

                  When you're offering notes on a writer's work you are offering an opinion based on your experience. You CAN be right, but it doesn't necessarily mean you ARE right. The same may be true with prematurely judging whether or not a writer will ever be successful in selling a script.

                  You can be honest and tell them that in your opinion this script is unlikely to ever sell. That's not the same as telling someone to stop doing something that brings hope and inspiration to their life.

                  We have all heard the stories of a script that was rejected all over town, finally finding a home and becoming an iconic or classic film. One only needs to read the ten year journey of JK Rollins to find reason to continue writing.

                  The most you can hope for is that something helps them. After all, that is the only reason we give and want notes, right?

                  When you don't have a writer's group or a network of other writers to give you notes, sometimes a writer's only option is to pay someone for notes. Who am I to tell anyone what to do with their life or their money.

                  The only suggestion I would probably offer is that the consultation is just like any other reader-- it is still one person's opinion and it only means something if it helps you, as the writer, fulfill your vision. It certainly doesn't mean you have to take a single word of advice offered.

                  FA4
                  "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                  • #24
                    Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                    I think when giving a critique, it is important to point out what in the piece was working or what you liked about about a piece while pointing out what you think needs improvement and giving your overall assessment, even if it's really bad.

                    In my entire life, I've only read two things written by somebody else that I couldn't find a single positive thing to say about, and that's only because those two pieces suffered from plagiarizing issues, which ticked me off.

                    The main reason for that, in my mind, is because a relentlessly negative critique can start to lose the feeling of objectivity at a certain point and start to indicate some form of underlying bias, which makes it harder for the writer to decipher what elements of the feedback actually have merit. Basically, I think the presentation and framing of the feedback can be as important as the feedback itself.

                    In terms of when you're dealing with a writer who you just don't think has it, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell another person to stop writing. I'm pretty sure that's why the saying "Don't quit your dayjob" became more fashionable than "You suck!" in polite society.

                    That said, if you think they're wasting too much money on services or they're investing too much time in one idea that just isn't working, I don't see the harm in telling someone that they should save their money or try something new.

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                    • #25
                      Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

                      Is there really anyone out there who loves writing screenplays just to have screenplays? They're means to an end. If you're writing one, you want to see it produced. If they're never produced, you're disappointed.
                      For a true writer “money” is secondary. If anyone is writing screenplays because their primary passion is money, then they will certainly fail.

                      The “means to an end” (as you say) for me is the joy and satisfaction of a completed screenplay. The joy I had writing the characters, bringing out the emotions, the conflict, the humor, the exhilarating action, etc.

                      Sure, I’d like to see it produced and see my story come alive on screen, but I’m okay if it doesn’t. I’m not gonna fall to pieces in despair.

                      I will stop writing screenplays when it is no longer a joy for me. Not because I didn’t make any money.
                      Last edited by JoeNYC; 10-01-2020, 06:00 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                        Originally posted by EdFury View Post

                        Picking a premise that has an actual chance of selling if done well.
                        My thoughts on this was best expressed in the "Picking Right Idea" thread, page 19, post 187, if anyone wants to check it out.
                        Last edited by JoeNYC; 10-01-2020, 03:44 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                          Seriously, if you don't care about making money or getting your work produced, then there's no motivation to get better at your craft or push yourself to be at a professional level.

                          Writing screenplays for the personal joy of it? Sounds like masturbating in front of the mirror.

                          Why even bother getting feedback?
                          Last edited by Why One; 10-01-2020, 05:40 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                            Originally posted by Why One View Post
                            Seriously, if you don't care about making money or getting your work produced, then there's no motivation to get better at your craft or push yourself to be at a professional level.

                            Writing screenplays for the personal joy of it? Sounds like masturbating in front of the mirror.

                            Why even bother getting feedback?
                            Why One, I never said I didn't care about making money. Money is nice, but it's secondary to my passion to write. It's not on the same level because making money as a professional writer isn't an easy achievement.

                            It's not because a writer may not be any good. It may be he's a great writer, but for any reason he may not sell, because what he enjoys writing isn't commercial, or it is commercial, but it's not the right script at the right time for the right buyer.

                            My point is, which is hard for you to accept, is that I'm not driven/motivated by money. If it happens -- GREAT!

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                            • #29
                              Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                              We always go in circles in these notes threads.

                              Take real life. Your friend Brenda says "I hate that hat." Your friend Doug says "I love that hat." Is that hat ugly or cute?

                              Why do we think something creative would ever be able to have notes that make perfect sense 100% of the time when we all think differently about everything, especially art?

                              Hell even the note itself can be taken 1000 different ways by different writers. So the note can be 100% right and everyone will agree -- but Writer A hears it one way and Writer B hears it another. "Act 2 moves slow" Writer A is like, yes I know how to fix that and Writer B is like, nope they're wrong.

                              I'm just always in awe of writers ability to take a creative medium and try to make it a science with laws and rules that always apply.

                              By the way, I think that hat is ugly but it looks good on you.

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                              • #30
                                Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                                Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                                For a true writer "money- is secondary. If anyone is writing screenplays because their primary passion is money, then they will certainly fail.

                                The "means to an end- (as you say) for me is the joy and satisfaction of a completed screenplay. The joy I had writing the characters, bringing out the emotions, the conflict, the humor, the exhilarating action, etc.

                                Sure, I'd like to see it produced and see my story come alive on screen, but I'm okay if it doesn't. I'm not gonna fall to pieces in despair.

                                I will stop writing screenplays when it is no longer a joy for me. Not because I didn't make any money.
                                I have a stronger passion for money than I do storytelling.

                                I don't have some crushing need to get these stories off my chest. I love doing it, despite the exhaustion and stress of it, it never feels like work.

                                But pretending there is some moral high ground for being in it for "the art- is a load of bs, IMO.

                                I treat this like a job. I'm competitive. I want to outwork everybody. If that means I'm not a "true writer,- so be it.

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