Theme and Opposing conflict

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  • Theme and Opposing conflict

    I am curious about everyone's thoughts on how the theme should be introduced and when you should choose to focus on the antagonist or oppositional conflict with the protagonist, instead of thematic goals.
    Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

  • #2
    Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

    I know I'm going to be in the minority here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but theme isn't something I really care enough about to even focus on like that.

    My reasoning is that in any competently written story, a theme or message will eventually develop over the course of writing it anyway.

    Reason number two is that, from my experience, theme is kind of subjective in the sense that just because you write a story with a specific theme in mind, that doesn't necessarily mean any given reader is going to interpret it as such. Some may get it, others will go with an entirely different interpretation.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that, me personally, I would just focus on giving the story exactly what it needs to be a good story on a page by page basis, whatever that may be, rather than shoehorning writerly objectives into certain pages just for the sake of having them there.

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    • #3
      Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

      Originally posted by Prezzy View Post
      I know I'm going to be in the minority here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but theme isn't something I really care enough about to even focus on like that.

      My reasoning is that in any competently written story, a theme or message will eventually develop over the course of writing it anyway.

      Reason number two is that, from my experience, theme is kind of subjective in the sense that just because you write a story with a specific theme in mind, that doesn't necessarily mean any given reader is going to interpret it as such. Some may get it, others will go with an entirely different interpretation.

      Basically, what I'm saying is that, me personally, I would just focus on giving the story exactly what it needs to be a good story on a page by page basis, whatever that may be, rather than shoehorning writerly objectives into certain pages just for the sake of having them there.
      When execs ask you "what's it about?- they aren't gonna want a logline or plot and story beats. Be ready with the thematic elements.

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      • #4
        Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

        Originally posted by Satriales View Post
        When execs ask you "what's it about?- they aren't gonna want a logline or plot and story beats. Be ready with the thematic elements.
        I get that much. What I'm saying is every story is going to be about something whether you plan for it to be about a particular thing or not, so why hamper yourself by forcing it from the get go?

        I mean, that's one way to approach it, but you don't have to kill yourself over it to end up with a story that has a theme, so don't sweat it.

        For example, I wrote a heartwarming story where the concept revolved around a guy ruthlessly stalking his ex-girlfriend, but thematically it ended up being about relationships and appreciating the good things you already have instead of the idealized version of things you want.

        Did I plan for that? No. I just wanted to write a story about someone doing awful things in a funny way, but the narrative choices I made to simply make the story work brought me where I needed to be in the end thematically anyway.

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        • #5
          Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

          Originally posted by Julysses View Post
          I am curious about everyone's thoughts on how the theme should be introduced and when you should choose to focus on the antagonist or oppositional conflict with the protagonist, instead of thematic goals.
          IMO, the conflict in the plot should grow from and be answering the thematic question. They're not separate.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

            Originally posted by Satriales View Post
            When execs ask you whats it about? they arent gonna want a logline or plot and story beats. Be ready with the thematic elements.
            Well, Bob, since you're asking, it's about not getting killed by the motherfvcking Alien. Do you think we should add some other thematic elements?
            Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
            "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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            • #7
              Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

              Originally posted by Crayon View Post
              Well, Bob, since you're asking, it's about not getting killed by the motherfvcking Alien. Do you think we should add some other thematic elements?
              Good luck with that.

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              • #8
                Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                Good luck with that.
                Good luck with what?

                Are you saying that Alien [1979] wouldn't get made today unless the writer added a bunch of "thematic elements" to satisfy some executives?
                Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                  Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                  Good luck with what?

                  Are you saying that Alien [1979] wouldn't get made today unless the writer added a bunch of "thematic elements" to satisfy some executives?
                  Good luck going in a room in 2020 and being ill-prepared to discuss the thematic elements of your story.

                  It's also telling that you think that ALIEN does not in fact contain these elements.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                    Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                    Good luck going in a room in 2020 and being ill-prepared to discuss the thematic elements of your story.
                    Thanks. I'll take a rabbit's foot as backup.

                    Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                    It's also telling that you think that ALIEN does not in fact contain these elements.
                    Of what is it "also telling"?

                    What are "these elements" that Alien [1979] does "in fact" contain?
                    Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                    "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                      Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                      Thanks. I'll take a rabbit's foot as backup.



                      Of what is it "also telling"?

                      What are "these elements" that Alien [1979] does "in fact" contain?
                      Strong thematic elements, but of course, you're being obtuse and you knew what I was referring to.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                        Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                        Strong thematic elements, but of course, youre being obtuse and you knew what I was referring to.
                        No, I genuinely do not know what you were referring to. If Alien [1979] has a "theme" (other than not getting killed by the Alien) then I'm blind to it. Please, if you just tell me its "theme" then I can look for the "thematic elements" myself.
                        Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                        "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                          Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                          No, I genuinely do not know what you were referring to. If Alien [1979] has a "theme" (other than not getting killed by the Alien) then I'm blind to it. Please, if you just tell me its "theme" then I can look for the "thematic elements" myself.
                          I'm going to copy and paste from Wikipedia, since I don't have time to write anything lengthy on my own. But I will say that Alien is one of the more over-analyzed movies in regard to theme and metaphor.

                          Critics have analyzed Alien's sexual overtones. Following Barbara Creed's analysis of the Alien creature as a representation of the "monstrous-feminine as archaic mother",[107] Ximena Gallardo C. and C. Jason Smith compared the facehugger's attack on Kane to a male rape and the chestburster scene to a form of violent birth, noting that the Alien's phallic head and method of killing the crew members add to the sexual imagery.[108][109] Dan O'Bannon, who wrote the film's screenplay, has argued that the scene is a metaphor for the male fear of penetration, and that the "oral invasion" of Kane by the facehugger functions as "payback" for the many horror films in which sexually vulnerable women are attacked by male monsters.[110] McIntee claims that "Alien is a rape movie as much as Straw Dogs (1971) or I Spit on Your Grave (1978), or The Accused (1988). On one level, it's about an intriguing alien threat. On one level it's about parasitism and disease. And on the level that was most important to the writers and director, it's about sex, and reproduction by non-consensual means. And it's about this happening to a man."[111] He notes how the film plays on men's fear and misunderstanding of pregnancy and childbirth, while also giving women a glimpse into these fears.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                            Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                            IMO, the conflict in the plot should grow from and be answering the thematic question. They're not separate.
                            I would agree with that. I get what you are saying, in that, the conflict within the plot allows the theme to be stated.

                            But sometimes, especially in adult-themed drama, action, suspense the theme is revealed later during the character's transformation and it's revealed with the character past trauma being confronted that causing internal conflict that they need to overcome.

                            Could it be dependant on how important the internal conflict is to the plot? As the internal-conflict can be the primary motivation for the protag.

                            [maybe it has to do with the attention span of the audience?]
                            Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Theme and Opposing conflict

                              Originally posted by Prezzy View Post
                              I know I'm going to be in the minority here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but theme isn't something I really care enough about to even focus on like that.

                              My reasoning is that in any competently written story, a theme or message will eventually develop over the course of writing it anyway.

                              Reason number two is that, from my experience, theme is kind of subjective in the sense that just because you write a story with a specific theme in mind, that doesn't necessarily mean any given reader is going to interpret it as such. Some may get it, others will go with an entirely different interpretation.

                              Basically, what I'm saying is that me personally, I would just focus on giving the story exactly what it needs to be a good story on a page by page basis, whatever that maybe, rather than shoehorning writerly objectives into certain pages just for the sake of having them there.
                              I think you make a good point and it depends on the writer and how the movie is finished.

                              Personally, I would consider the Theme to play on the character's backstory and add reasoning to conflict. Without the necessary elements, you end up with stereotypical, cliche characters... Which for a comedy could be the best as you are not looking for a deep drama, but get the audience involved quickly and focusing primarily on situational jokes.
                              Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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