Plot Point 2

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  • Re: Plot Point 2

    Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
    Neither are producers. That is my point.
    Producers make money by getting movies made. "Gurus" make money by getting books made.
    Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

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    • Re: Plot Point 2

      Originally posted by NoirDigits View Post
      Producers make money by getting movies made. "Gurus" make money by getting books made.
      I am aware of this, but I would like to stay on the topic of the process of writing screenplays, not sales.

      In particular, why we should not listen to good advice from books or wherever. Mr Mazin exclaimed that the reason to avoid these options is because it usually comes from those who do not make a living writing screenplays. I replied that many corporate suits who make the call on rewrites do not make a living writing screenplays, either. So if one source is valid, why is the other not? I added that the "gurus", if you will, are only pointing out what works in the most successful Hollywood films so that we can apply that knowledge to our own theory and become better writers, where as the corporate suits just want to make a buck off of purile nonsense like Scary Movie 5.

      I never knew learning was so taboo.
      Last edited by Biohazard; 01-21-2012, 12:27 PM.

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      • Re: Plot Point 2

        Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
        I am aware of this, but I would like to stay on the topic of the process of writing screenplays, not sales.

        My remark wasn't really intended to be related to sales. My point was that producers actually get movies made, so their opinion is more valuable than these authors with literally zero credits.
        Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

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        • Re: Plot Point 2

          Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
          Let's not avoid the point I made just before...who's to say a producer knows more about how to write a screenplay than a guy who makes a living off of helping people understand how to write screenplays?

          sorry, i love the car analogy:

          --the mechanic can only help when you've got a completed car that malfunctions - the analysis.

          --the salesman helps when you want to know what kind of color to buy, how fast, mpg, types of tires, 4wd v 2wd etc. - the creativity.

          so, i think the point is that the producer can at least be helpful because he/she can offer information about what they're looking for and whether it will sell.

          anyway, i could be interpreting all this incorrectly but that's my take--
          life happens
          despite a few cracked pots-
          and random sunlight

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          • Re: Plot Point 2

            At the end of the day everyone has to find their own path, I believe. But i do believe that there has to be some basic framework to work from. If you want to be a great basketball player you have to know the basics of the game. And i think that can apply for anything including screenwriting. And i believe that the basics of screenwriting is the three-act structure. And we can all work from there and change and manipulate what we won't in order to achieve our goal.

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            • Re: Plot Point 2

              Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
              It's a double standard, plain and simple.
              A double standard in Hollywood? No. Way.

              I think the potential harm is less in "understanding what you are attempting to do" and more about subscribing to a prescriptive template. Trying to squeeze a story into an artificial construction. Perhaps for a beginner, it provides a crutch to help them settle into this tricky new (for them) format. But if you're getting bogged down in it, then it's no longer helping.
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              • Re: Plot Point 2

                Originally posted by NoirDigits View Post
                My remark wasn't really intended to be related to sales. My point was that producers actually get movies made, so their opinion is more valuable than these authors with literally zero credits.
                Having the power to greenlight a film is not the same as having the knowledge and ability to write a screenplay of quality.

                The former is for a different topic entirely. The latter is what this thread is focusing on.

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                • Re: Plot Point 2

                  Originally posted by nic.h View Post
                  I think the potential harm is less in "understanding what you are attempting to do" and more about subscribing to a prescriptive template. Trying to squeeze a story into an artificial construction.
                  Yes, which is why it should be advocated that we look upon these books and such as malleable guidelines that can actually help instead of shunning them for being rigid truths...which they are not.

                  It's nothing but pompous, arrogant and counter-productive to proclaim that they have no value at all.

                  In fact, that's worse than saying they should be adhered to by the letter. Just completely ridiculous.

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                  • Re: Plot Point 2

                    Puerile. The word is puerile.

                    Biohazard, go do it your way. I am excited to go see the fruits of your serious, heartfelt labor in a movie theater near me. Let me know how it goes with the guru books and the plot points, and if you write a good movie, I will absolutely apologize publicly for being so misguided and foolish.

                    I mean it.

                    Nothing makes me more excited than the thought of finding a new sensei.

                    Best of luck to you... Not that you need it.

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                    • Re: Plot Point 2

                      Originally posted by Biohazard View Post

                      Why are we told not to listen to books when the authors are not (all, though some are) professional screenwriters, yet when a script sells, the very first thing that producers and directors and corporate suits do is tell you how to change your own story when they themselves are not making a living as writers either?

                      It's a double standard, plain and simple.
                      Because once the script is purchased, it's no longer your script. It's theirs. They make the decisions.

                      To quote a working, professional screenwriter who is much smarter than myself:

                      "Everyone swings a golf club differently, but the ones who do it the best have similar swings. The pros don't make random swings, they deconstruct the mechanics of their swing and fine tune it to make it as efficient and successful as they can. (Blake) Snyder, and everyone who writes about screenplay theory, is doing the same thing by deconstructing what has been proven successful for others so you can apply it to your own approach and hopefully improve your game."

                      Since when is there harm in understanding what you are attempting to do?
                      In response to that example, I'll point you to a previous post with a similar example:

                      Originally posted by ATB View Post

                      The problems with screenwriting how-to books are the same with any how-to ventures that are out there.

                      In high school, I played baseball. I was okay, but not very good. I started going to a hitting clinic a few times a week. Eventually, with all the "keep your elbows down, hold your weight on your back foot, squash the bug, keep your chin down, swing through the ball," I got a lot better.

                      But there were other kids there. Kids that were already very, very good. And you know what? They got worse. All that information that helped me only hurt them. They were naturals. They picked up a bat and knocked the fvcking seams off the ball. They stepped up to bat, shrugged their shoulders, spit a wad of chewing tobacco on the ump's polished cleats, and said, "Watch this." Until "gurus" got a hold of them... Their thoughts went from "Knock the flying sh!t off the ball" to "Chin up, elbows down, feet shoulder-width apart"... and they lost the magic in their swing.

                      That's how I think about screenwriting gurus and how-to books.

                      If you're not a very good writer, they can help you. When you can't see the forest through the trees, then maybe "Inciting Incident, Plot Point 1 & 2, the All is Lost Moment, etc." can help you map out the path through the forest.

                      But if you're a writer that already has some innate ability to write interesting, exciting stories, they can hurt you. You already know how to get through the forest. You've got the nose for it. You don't need a map.

                      Just hit the fvcking seams off that script. Fvck the gurus. They're riding the bench anyway.
                      Breaking down the process into a one-size-fits-all, paint-by-numbers approach might help a sh!tty writer get better, but it can equally make a great writer into a confused, lost, over-thinking mess.

                      So why follow a one-size-fits-all approach? Why not feel your way through your own process? These gurus are not successful screenwriters because the approach they teach doesn't work.

                      You can't sculpt a human mind to fit a single mold. We all think, feel, work and respond differently. We need to find our own way of doing things, not look to others to make something that's hard into something easy.

                      It can't be done.

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                      • Re: Plot Point 2

                        I replied that many corporate suits who make the call on rewrites do not make a living writing screenplays, either.
                        Because the Suits are the boss.

                        It doesn't matter if a Suit is qualified, they write the checks.

                        Screenwriters are hired to write what the boss wants.

                        End of story.

                        It's an apples and oranges argument.
                        Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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                        • Re: Plot Point 2

                          Originally posted by ATB View Post
                          Breaking down the process into a one-size-fits-all, paint-by-numbers approach might help a sh!tty writer get better, but it can equally make a great writer into a confused, lost, over-thinking mess.

                          So why follow a one-size-fits-all approach? Why not feel your way through your own process? These gurus are not successful screenwriters because the approach they teach doesn't work.

                          You can't sculpt a human mind to fit a single mold. We all think, feel, work and respond differently. We need to find our own way of doing things, not look to others to make something that's hard into something easy.

                          It can't be done.

                          Read:

                          "Everyone swings a golf club differently, but the ones who do it the best have similar swings. The pros don't make random swings, they deconstruct the mechanics of their swing and fine tune it to make it as efficient and successful as they can. (Blake) Snyder, and everyone who writes about screenplay theory, is doing the same thing by deconstructing what has been proven successful for others so you can apply it to your own approach and hopefully improve your game."


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                          • Re: Plot Point 2

                            Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                            Neither are producers. That is my point.

                            Why are we told not to listen to books when the authors are not (all, though some are) professional screenwriters, yet when a script sells, the very first thing that producers and directors and corporate suits do is tell you how to change your own story when they themselves are not making a living as writers either?

                            It's a double standard, plain and simple.
                            No. You're comparing apples to oranges.

                            We don't listen to gurus because they have nothing to back up their word, they have no credentials. And there aren't "many" gurus who have sold screenplays. Your link listed just 2. And there are over 160 guru books out there.

                            We listen to pro writers because they have that body of work, they have proved they can master the art of screenwriting, of building worlds and characters and creating emotional connections. Even when a writer churns out remake dross he still proved himself with his screenplays that brought him to the attention of the powers-that-be, even if they didn't produce his script (or changed it beyond belief).

                            On top of that, no one here has advocated you listen to a producer, mainly because some kid out of finance school has no idea about writing so your entire argument is false. And beyond that, writers listen to producers simply because they are the boss. Have you ever worked for a boss who's an *******? We all have. But they're the boss and that's why we grit our teeth and get on with it. But you know what? No producer has yet to write a book and tell people how to write screenplays. (And even if they did, they'd be lumped in with the gurus as all talk and no walk).

                            So to recap, screenwriting gurus have no track record. Writers do - they walk the walk - and producers have the money therefore their decision is final (for the writer). This is bleeding obvious and I think you made your flawed point to try and have a dig at Craig as he owns you everytime you take him on.
                            M.A.G.A.

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                            • Re: Plot Point 2

                              Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                              Yes, which is why it should be advocated that we look upon these books and such as malleable guidelines that can actually help instead of shunning them for being rigid truths...which they are not.

                              It's nothing but pompous, arrogant and counter-productive to proclaim that they have no value at all.

                              In fact, that's worse than saying they should be adhered to by the letter. Just completely ridiculous.
                              I tend not to speak in absolutes because they rarely hold water, so I take your point. (Though they are very entertaining to read.)

                              Having said that, I think most writers - particularly budding writers - would be better placed to save their money and download and read all those free (legal!) scripts of movies they love and want to emulate, and work out this stuff for themselves. Not because I'm a big fan of reinventing the wheel - though that was quite the invention, no? - but because there's no better way to understand how something is constructed than by actually pulling it apart yourself.

                              I'd offer a car analogy here but when we're seven pages into a topic I'd venture that analogies are no longer helpful.
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                              • Re: Plot Point 2

                                Originally posted by Biohazard View Post

                                "(Blake) Snyder, and everyone who writes about screenplay theory, is doing the same thing by deconstructing what has been proven successful for others so you can apply it to your own approach and hopefully improve your game."
                                Let's be honest.

                                That's a f#cking lie. Screenwriting how-to theories have not been "proven successful for others."

                                That's the whole point of this discussion.

                                There is no one-size-fits-all approach. Anyone who tells you so is a no-talent hack.

                                That includes Syd Field, Richard McKee, David Trottier, etc. etc. etc.

                                They do not know what has been "proven successful for others" because they don't know the process of writing a successful screenplay. They only know how to reverse engineer great scripts.

                                That is not the same thing.
                                Last edited by ATB; 01-21-2012, 01:19 PM.

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