A good script vs. a sellable script

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  • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

    Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
    I argued that EVERYONE ignoring a great script would never happen. Sure there will be some who might pass on it. But the notion that a great script would keep being shunned in perpetuity, robbing the writer of notoriety is far fetched.

    But I agree with you 100% about Lockhart's comment of writing the right script vs. the great script. The script I'm shopping now isn't "great" -- I'm not an idiot. But it's got a killer premise and enormous creativity and imagination. That's what I hope will attract attention to it.
    A script doesn't need to be "great" in the sense of being "of lasting value", for it to get made. Obviously. We see it every day. There are many instances of a company having a mandate and a script coming along that satisfies that and getting made--it's preparation and "good enough" meeting luck. But, it's not what you shoot for, you always need to shoot for the absolute best script you can.

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    • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

      Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
      I think you're right, but in a way, the flip side is also true. There are many capable writers who, whatever, don't have the right idea at the right time in the right genre at the right blablabla. As someone up-thread posted, these forums are filled with scribes who did well in a contest, got repped, and then nothing ever happened for them.

      As screenwriters wanting to get a film made, we are basically asking people to invest MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in our product. A lot of stars have to line up for that to happen, no matter how good you are.

      That's not just Hollywood, that's any business of any sort---try opening a restaurant. You might be the best chef in the world, but still, magic needs to happen, in an industry where 50% of the businesses go out of business. Location, menu, timing, novelty, decor, P.R. clout, etc., all of that matters.

      What I'm saying is, writing at a professional level is a mandatory.

      Of course a lot of other right time-right concept magic has to happen to break in.

      But, first things first -- talent is a requirement. And you can't cover up a lack of talent with sleight of hand.

      I recall a few years ago (been on this board too f-ing long) some "new" member was downgrading the value of talent and putting all his chips on a "commercial concept" as being the only real requirement to break in.

      He then claimed he could teach any average Joe on the street who could write at high school level how to turn a concept into a sold script. I believe he said he intended to do so and would come back to prove his point on Done Deal. I wonder what happened to him.

      Of course, at this point in the discussion there's always someone quick to point out mediocre scripts that sold. Like Geoff said, this doesn't happen often.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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      • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

        I've also been here too long, and I've heard dozens of people tout the right script right time mantra. I've never seen one of them make a sale.

        That's not to say it doesn't happen. I've been paid good money to rewrite scripts that were bought cheap because of the concept, and then the original writer was fired, never to be heard from again.

        Screenwriting isn't a spec script business. It's a writing business. If they think you can write, you can get hired instead of playing spec script bingo.

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        • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

          In all "vs." screenwriting debates the real answer is *both*.

          Character vs. story? Both.

          Same case here. You need a good screenplay which is also the right screenplay. You need the screenplay that everyone wants because it will make a pile of money *and* the screenplay everyone wants because it's well written.

          Look, there are a million screenplays out there. Some of those are commercial (but not well written). Some of those are well written (but not commercial). Do you think anyone is going to choose either of those when there are also some that are both commercial and well written?

          Usually they are looking for *writers* rather than specific screenplays, but all of this still stands. Do you want to hire a writer who has "no ear for what audiences want to see" or a writer who "knows what audiences want to see but writes crappy" or a writer who "writes what audiences want to see brilliantly"?

          There is no "vs." it's both.

          Bill
          Free Script Tips:
          http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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          • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

            Love ya, Bill, but moral relativism doesn't apply to screenwriting. There's actual bad advice, and there's nothing wrong with calling people out on it.

            This thread started out by advising people to go against their instincts and following "BS rules" to impress interns. We both know that's nonsense on at least a couple of levels.

            You've written a bunch of screenwriting books. If I read them, would I find you equivocating on every issue? I sincerely doubt it.

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            • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

              Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
              Some of those are well written (but not commercial). Do you think anyone is going to choose either of those when there are also some that are both commercial and well written?

              Usually they are looking for *writers* rather than specific screenplays, but all of this still stands. ... a writer who "writes what audiences want to see brilliantly"?
              -- "a writer who 'writes what audiences want to see brilliantly'"

              Yes, ideally this is the best case, i.e., a writer who has the ability/instincts and talent to come up with commercial ideas and write them brilliantly, but again, I don't like to sprout this as the be all to launching and maintaining a screenwriting career.

              I like to balance the above mentioned truth with the fact that great writing, even though may seem not commercial, can and does get a writer noticed by the industry.

              For example, that Clint Eastwood movie "Million Dollar Baby". He took it to the WB studio, but they declined because of its dark themes and downer ending, deeming it not commercial. Clint persisted in championing it, so WB not wanting to upset their association with Clint, agreed to put up some of the money.

              The movie went on to win Oscars and be a huge commercial success. There are other examples like this. And there are examples where the great writing of stories deemed not commercial didn't get sold, but did get the writer work.

              Martell, what you say is true, but I wanted to expand on your "Usually they are looking for "writers" rather than specific screenplays" statement.

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              • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                I even take it a step further in what sc is saying, I think amateur writers have to succumb to the fact that their opinion of their own writing has no weight. Your ability. Your know how to pull off the magic on the page is going to need to be validated by a door keeper. The amateur writer should not be the judge of if his/her script works. Because most writers think theirs work.

                That's why I cringe all the time on these boards when I see someone talking about their story and they get handed on a silver platter a variation that is way, way better than what they have, and they go on to say that's not my story...

                There's no 'luck' factor in the craft side of writing, I know obviously business always includes a luck factor. But writers don't get lucky when they pull something off. This isn't poker where the worst player can sit with a few pros and clean them out, and I've seen that happen too. Writing is more like billiards or chess where the better player/writer will perform better every time.

                If I was a young twenty-something who had the dream live and well in their heart and you've realized writing calls to you, you do not have to push yourself to get into your stories. It's something you look to do anytime you can. If that's you, develop a network of peers that have no problem telling you that something stinks and also discussing the process of how each of them tackle a script. When their opinion changes about the way you tell a story, then its time to maybe query or contact managers. If you can not give a script to a peer and come back with mostly clean notes and a lot of compliments then how can you think an agent or manager would rave over it?

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                • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                  After hanging out here for a bit I feel like axioms are much more valuable than rules: ie., make your story is interesting; keep your plot moving forward; give character to your characters; make the end-product mean something; and bonus points if it's remotely f*ing filmable.

                  The hidden caveat in all this (imho), is any single aspect requires a distinct level of skill to weave the final tapestry. But seriously, it isn't rocket science to spot a story that has the magic. They sparkle like shining rays of light on a cloudy day. It's not surprising the ones mentioned up-thread "made it-. What's more surprising (to me) is anybody would think otherwise.

                  Just surfing and two cents anyway. Happy Wednesday!
                  life happens
                  despite a few cracked pots-
                  and random sunlight

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                  • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                    So my take away from this thread is: A good script is any script that gets you a real, paid writing job.
                    "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                    • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                      Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
                      So my take away from this thread is: A good script is any script that gets you a real, paid writing job.
                      Or maybe a good script is just something unexplainable. Sort of like good music. I have zero clue why, but somehow 40 seconds of an E piano chord at the end of "A Day In The Life" by The Beatles is one of the best endings ever -- go figure. (By the way, there's also a million how-to-books on writing a great song).
                      I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

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                      • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                        Screenwriting isn't a spec script business. It's a writing business. If they think you can write, you can get hired instead of playing spec script bingo.
                        It's a writing business <--- love this.

                        I'd like to expand on this part: If they think you can write....

                        How do we convince people we can write?

                        My opinion -- when our writing shows we have something compelling to say to the reader. Not just to entertain them but to shine a light on some aspect of the human condition through dramatic expression.

                        Good writers do this so well, so seamlessly, the reader, or the movie watcher, doesn't even sense it, at first. But, days later, a scene comes floating up from our memory asking us to think more deeply about it.

                        I'm not talking about specific genres -- like drama or small personal stories -- I'm talking about all genres, all scripts.

                        If there's nothing being said between the set pieces -- no matter how mind-blowing the car chases or explosions may be -- it's just a string of set pieces hooked together by flimsy exposition.

                        The Matrix, for example, had great set pieces. But it also asked us to wake up, unplug from the metaphorical "machine" and deeply consider "There is no spoon."

                        This is an example of the writer having something to say. But it requires the writer to have their own point of view borne from their own experiences.

                        Otherwise everything they write becomes derivative and trite.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                        Comment


                        • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                          Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                          Or maybe a good script is just something unexplainable. Sort of like good music. I have zero clue why, but somehow 40 seconds of an E piano chord at the end of "A Day In The Life" by The Beatles is one of the best endings ever -- go figure. (By the way, there's also a million how-to-books on writing a great song).

                          I genuinely like this musical description but I also think it’s very explainable. Good stories have the ability to take us into a different headspace. Everyone here has experienced it. It’s the beat of music where you unconsciously join the rhythm or ride. Perhaps it’s the Rolling Stones, Katy Perry, John Lennon or Bach’s Concerto #3. Only you can know because it’s your headspace.

                          And that same quality is found in the book you read while sitting alone, or traveling on a bus, or in a crowded coffee shop. The world just disappears. Good stories can do that. And good storytellers act as our guides. One thing I’m very sure of, is that really, really good storytellers can reach right through the page and control the ride. It’s not hamfisted or clunky, but smooth as butter, one minute you’re there and the next you’re gone.

                          And that same aspect is why I think we can’t objectively judge our own work. We can’t be both the creator of the headspace and the recipient of it at the same time.

                          Anyway, just my random thoughts. Happy Thursday everybody!
                          Last edited by asjah8; 07-16-2015, 07:00 PM.
                          life happens
                          despite a few cracked pots-
                          and random sunlight

                          Comment


                          • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                            You can't be the creator of the headspace and the recipient of it at the same time, but you can alternate. Sometimes you are writing with the creative side of your brain, sometimes you are reading it over and gauging your own reactions to it with the analytical side, and making adjustments accordingly.

                            Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
                            I genuinely like this musical description but I also think it's very explainable. Good stories have the ability to take us into a different headspace. Everyone here has experienced it. It's the beat of music where you unconsciously join the rhythm or ride. Perhaps it's the Rolling Stones, Katy Perry, John Lennon or Bach's Concerto #3. Only you can know because it's your headspace.

                            And that same quality is found in the book you read while sitting alone, or traveling on a bus, or in a crowded coffee shop. The world just disappears. Good stories can do that. And good storytellers act as our guides. One thing I'm very sure of, is that really, really good storytellers can reach right through the page and control the ride. It's not hamfisted or clunky, but smooth as butter, one minute you're there and the next you're gone.

                            And that same aspect is why I think we can't objectively judge our own work. We can't be both the creator of the headspace and the recipient of it at the same time.

                            Anyway, just my random thoughts. Happy Thursday everybody!

                            Comment


                            • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                              Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                              Or maybe a good script is just something unexplainable. Sort of like good music. I have zero clue why, but somehow 40 seconds of an E piano chord at the end of "A Day In The Life" by The Beatles is one of the best endings ever -- go figure. (By the way, there's also a million how-to-books on writing a great song).
                              I was being a little bit facetious. I agree with what you're saying. I'm not one of those poor bastards who reads scripts for a living, but after reading a couple dozen bad, dry scripts, when you get a good one, it's obvious. When I start reading a script and I see the movie while I'm reading, it's clear that the writer knows what he or she is doing. Even when the subject of the script is not my cup of tea, the talent is still obvious. And I really don't think scripts that pop like that were written by people following a formula or only attempting to write a "sellable" script. I think the scripts that really pop, were written by people who love to tell their story and have the tools to do it.
                              "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                              • Re: A good script vs. a sellable script

                                "I think the scripts that really pop were written by people who love to tell their story and have the tools to do it."

                                I totally agree with that.

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