Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

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  • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

    Originally posted by gregbeal View Post
    I guess I wasn't clear enough earlier. I'll try again.

    Anyone who allows one or two spaces after a period within a paragraph to affect their read of a screenplay (or any other document, for that matter) is an idiot.

    This is a forest and trees issue. The forest is what matters.

    (BTW, I'm ancient and still tend to insert two spaces after every period when I write anything.)
    Greg, there's no reason to throw out personal insults. It's just a simple debate.

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    • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

      Originally posted by Vertigo51 View Post
      Greg, there's no reason to throw out personal insults. It's just a simple debate.
      I don't think it was a personal insult. It was a statement of fact. You obviously run things the way you want to, but if you seriously consider a single space after a period as a mistake, then, yeah, you are missing the forest for the trees.

      HH

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      • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

        Originally posted by haroldhecuba View Post
        I don't think it was a personal insult. It was a statement of fact. You obviously run things the way you want to, but if you seriously consider a single space after a period as a mistake, then, yeah, you are missing the forest for the trees.

        HH
        To me, calling someone who has an opposing opinion an idiot, is a personal insult. If Greg or anyone else wants to roll that way, it's their right. But, it's just unnecessary.

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        • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

          Originally posted by Vertigo51 View Post
          To me, calling someone who has an opposing opinion an idiot, is a personal insult. If Greg or anyone else wants to roll that way, it's their right. But, it's just unnecessary.
          I would agree with you, but...

          It was obviously hyperbolic, and, I think, directed more towards the discussion itself than any particular individual. And I think that by deliberately focusing on "idiot", you are again missing the forest for the trees.

          Basically, as has been said by those who are in a position to know: it doesn't matter.

          I'll stop belaboring the point, though, and agree to disagree.

          HH

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          • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

            Originally posted by Vertigo51 View Post
            calling someone who has an opposing opinion an idiot, is a personal insult.
            Perhaps in most cases. In this case, however, it's a simple statement of fact.

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            • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

              Originally posted by Vertigo51 View Post
              To me, calling someone who has an opposing opinion an idiot, is a personal insult. If Greg or anyone else wants to roll that way, it's their right. But, it's just unnecessary.
              dood -- you really missed the point. this is what Greg said:
              Anyone who allows one or two spaces after a period within a paragraph to affect their read of a screenplay (or any other document, for that matter) is an idiot.
              and maybe you don't realize this, but Greg is the program coordinator (or whatever) for the Nicholl Fellowship (the topic of this thread btw) and this statement is telling you and all of us that he does not condone idiot behavior (like knocking a script for the number of spaces after a period) amongst his readers.

              seriously -- you gotta have a firmer grasp of the english language if you want to be a writer.

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              • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                Originally posted by figment View Post
                Uh, clearly, I'm not Greg, Anagram, but Greg already answered this concern/suggestion in post #192... read the last sentence of this first paragraph -- they already include some scripts that have negative first impressions, but the scripts won them over by the end of the read.
                Ok, thanks for pointing that out.

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                • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                  Originally posted by NikeeGoddess View Post
                  dood -- you really missed the point. this is what Greg said: Anyone who allows one or two spaces after a period within a paragraph to affect their read of a screenplay (or any other document, for that matter) is an idiot. and maybe you don't realize this, but Greg is the program coordinator (or whatever) for the Nicholl Fellowship (the topic of this thread btw) and this statement is telling you and all of us that he does not condone idiot behavior (like knocking a script for the number of spaces after a period) amongst his readers.
                  I don't think Greg was limiting his comment to his own readers.

                  But this "idiot" stuff is really the crux of it -- that kind of reaction is what prompted me to post on this topic in the first place, after people went nuts over the idea that a contest reader had told a writer that he should put two spaces after a period. First, the assertion was, "Nobody reading a script cares about how many spaces are after a period." Then, after examples were given of readers (and writers) who apparently DO care, the response was, "Well, anybody who cares about the number of spaces after a period is an idiot." I don't think that's a great attitude to have. You might think that a reader who cares about spaces is an idiot, but if it was worth trying to get your script into that person's hands in the first place, don't you want to do everything you can to make him or her favorably disposed to it? If it appears that even a few readers are bothered by a writer using only one space, why not err on the side of caution and use two spaces, which has the added benefit of being grammatically correct? To my knowledge, no one has yet claimed that a reader complained about two spaces -- and even many of the posters (including Greg) who've said it doesn't matter also say that they personally use two spaces -- so there's no downside to going that way. This isn't a "forest for the trees" issue and it's not clinging to a technicality as some kind of a security blanket. It's just respecting the preferences of some readers who adhere to the traditional rule and may be distracted by an error (or what they perceive to be an error) repeated countless times throughout a script. Contrary to Greg's suggestion, people generally don't "allow" themselves to be distracted by something -- they just get distracted. If a writer used blue font, that might be distracting, too, even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the script.

                  People obviously can do what they want. But, to me, it all boils down to:

                  One space -- becoming more accepted, but might be problematic to a few readers who follow the traditional rule.

                  Two spaces -- can't go wrong.

                  I believe the choice is clear. But either way, no one's an idiot just for giving it some thought.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                    Both Aspirant and Jeff have made good points. My personal experience is I had one reader for a contest deduct points of my total score because of formatting. It was similar to the one sentence after spaces in that he objected to my use of cut to's and bold when I used it. Another reader didn't deduct for this formatting choice. The point totals with other scripts were close enough that I could've advanced to the next round had it not been for these deductions. So my view of formatting is colored by this experience. Some readers will deduct, some won't. Most contests have a scoring sheet for their readers with areas for point awardage, and formatting is one of them. I think what's more important is for the contest directors to instruct their readers to score according to the intent behind the rule, as some readers will be more strict or less strict. It all depends on the reader which is why contest directors should strive to make scoring, an already subjective process, less so especially given that formatting should not be a subjective experience.

                    This experience only applies to contests, however. I remember reading on a site that at agencies and production companies, the readers were instructed not to include formatting in their coverage.

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                    • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                      What contest, Alex?

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                      • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                        What contest, Alex?
                        It's one of the smaller contests, not the Nicholl.

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                        • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                          It's always the same thing for the 1,000 "rules" that float around. Someone who has no idea what they're doing (like a reader for a small contest) will believe that their rules matter. And to puff themselves up, they'll tell you that they're right and you're wrong. They're rent-a-cops with a really loud whistle, because no one trusts them with a gun.

                          And then some writer will give some variation of this rationale: "if it might offend/bother/throw off someone, why not avoid it?" I think you can see where this is going: you're afraid to use the very thing that might help give your script a voice or flavor or your fingerprint or whatever you want to call it.

                          Because it isn't just one or two spaces - it's everything that someone starts a thread about here every three days. It's using songs in your script. It's having X number of characters, or line descriptions of Y length, or camera angles or talking to the reader or or or...

                          But the thing is - where's the person who matters that actually cares about this shit? Actual credible people in the industry have their own styles, but they don't penalize you for yours if it's different.

                          So who are these people who are making grown men soil themselves in fear of using one space after a period? I want names! I'm not talking about an unnamed reader from a small contest that has a box for "formatting." I'm not talking about a failed writer who's selling himself as an expert. I'm not talking about a guy who pretends he owns a production company on the internet. I'm talking about names, credits, someone working in the industry right now that we can look up and go "oh, okay. That guy's legit!"

                          Where are they?

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                          • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                            Obviously, Jeff, I completely agree with you, but I am curious about your response to a Doug Richardson article that addresses this. I posted about it here: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...641#post798641

                            In the interests of keeping this thread on topic, which is now something of a lost cause anyway.
                            Chicks Who Script podcast

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                            • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                              Interesting article, Emily. I'm curious to know Jeff's thoughts on that as well.

                              I agree, Jeff, that formatting rules are given too much credence. I think a possible remedy in the contest world, anyway, could be that formatting as a judging category should be eradicated completely. There is no other reason for it to exist other than to deduct merit from a script, and as long as the category exists, the potential for variance by readers in scoring exists. Instead, formatting could informally be folded into another category such as overall reading experience.

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                              • Re: Nicholl Fellowship 2012 open for submissions

                                He talks about two classes of things. The second class isn't surprising: agents who read a lot would rather read shorter scripts, and agents who read a lot would rather have their scripts bound in a way that's easier for them to handle. I mean... that's kind of human nature. (I would observe that this must be an old conversation he's remembering - it's been awhile time since brads were relevant.)

                                The first class he talks about is how the title page looks. No fancy fonts for the title, no pictures. He has his agents saying things like they'd never get a script from a valued client with those sins, because "great writers don't make those kind of mistakes." Bullshit. Go through the black list. Probably 25% of the scripts on it don't have the title in Courier. (Disclaimer: I sometimes use a different font for my title. It's a chance to visually set up my world before they open the script.)

                                And photos are rare... but if it helps? Why the hell not. If memory serves, "Looper" had a picture of a gun on the cover. Honestly, I think the only reason there aren't more photos is because Final Draft makes it impossible to put them in.

                                Actually, there's probably something to the "title page image = worse quality screenplay," because pro screenwriting programs make it hard to do, whereas an amateur writing a script on Microsoft Word can drop one in easily.

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