Working on spec?

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  • #61
    Re: Working on spec?

    Madworld: I'm sorry you took my point personally. That was not my intent. My only intended point was that in Hollywood, writers typically don't fight because the "system" discourages it. Being known as "difficult" is career suicide. On the other hand, you can make an argument that more writers should fight to stand up for their work. That was my only point.
    And for the record, you were right -- I have no kids.

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    • #62
      Re: Working on spec?

      Craig: I totally get your point about Eszterhas being of a different time -- and a unique individual. I just happen to believe in the same principle -- and to a very limited extent so far, I have been successful with it. I'm not sure that really gives me anything but a certain satisfaction, but to me that's important.

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      • #63
        Re: Working on spec?

        I don't have kids, but one of the reasons I like film so much is because it's collaborative. So give me money and I have no problem rewriting my screenplay according to our common goals. One thing I am not is a coward.
        Chicks Who Script podcast

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        • #64
          Re: Working on spec?

          Eszterhas was a hard-headed bull of a writer. He has some great, entertaining stories but it's impossible to take the man at face-value.

          As a rule of thumb, I think you should seek advice from those who do what you want to do. Eszterhas was a spec machine. An anomaly. A self-proclaimed system-shaker.

          Not sure he ever met the definition of a "working writer." In fact, his goal was to not become a working writer. To maintain his distance. To remain unsoiled by an industry he perceived as contemptible.

          If that's what you want, great. But if you want to be a working writer, seek advice from writers who are working.

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          • #65
            Re: Working on spec?

            Originally posted by DavidK View Post
            Whether or not there's any cowardice involved - and I suspect it's rather a tongue-in-cheek comment - in reality I think everyone aspires to a similar holy grail: to write an immensely satisfying script that's bought for seven figures, unchanged, and rendered into a praised and memorable film.
            Why "unchanged?"

            This is really what I don't understand.

            Here's the thing:

            I can not envision everything that's going to happen in terms of a script of mine becoming a movie. It is literally impossible. So why should I want it unchanged?

            I mean, let's just start with the idea of casting. Let's imagine that you get your dream cast, the guys and gals you wrote the movie for. (Because anybody else would probably necessitate some minor changes to help support what they brought to the table as actors). You go out to them, these titans, these people you respect, who you're dying to work with ...

            ... and you don't think they're going to have any useful ideas?

            Really?

            I guess to me it's the old saying: If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. If you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

            I would hope that I'd be working with people who were smart enough to find improvements that i missed.

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            • #66
              Re: Working on spec?

              Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
              Why "unchanged?"

              This is really what I don't understand.
              Simple, and why I refer to it as the holy grail. Because as unrealistic as it is the ultimate achievement would be to write a script that nobody could improve on. But do I think that's something any writer can reasonably aspire to? Of course not, I live in the real world along with everyone else. You do your best, you take your chances.
              "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

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              • #67
                Re: Working on spec?

                Originally posted by jtwg50 View Post
                Madworld: I'm sorry you took my point personally. That was not my intent. My only intended point was that in Hollywood, writers typically don't fight because the "system" discourages it. Being known as "difficult" is career suicide. On the other hand, you can make an argument that more writers should fight to stand up for their work. That was my only point.
                And for the record, you were right -- I have no kids.
                No worries man, I didn't take it personally, truthfully. Just making a point that every day doing this is a struggle. It tries to crack you and there's plenty of times I have to make compromises that I don't want to make. But I know as hard as it is, it's temporary. You just have to pay your dues. Most people quit before they do. Most likely because it takes so much time to get going. I just got a WGA (associates) membership this year! So much time, so much free work just to get there. If you divide what I've been paid against how many hours I put in, it would be way less than minimum wage lol. It's a process - but definitely not for cowards.
                Last edited by madworld; 03-01-2015, 08:01 PM. Reason: just stumbled across it

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                • #68
                  Re: Working on spec?

                  Originally posted by jtwg50 View Post
                  Madworld: I'm sorry you took my point personally. That was not my intent. My only intended point was that in Hollywood, writers typically don't fight because the "system" discourages it. Being known as "difficult" is career suicide. On the other hand, you can make an argument that more writers should fight to stand up for their work. That was my only point.
                  And for the record, you were right -- I have no kids.
                  I've never met a fellow screenwriter who didn't fight. We fight all day long, year after year, movie after movie.

                  It's just there's different kinds of fighting.

                  There's the yelling tantrum, there's the stony silence, there's the war of attrition...

                  "Difficult" tends to describe emotional outbursts or petulant refusals.

                  It doesn't describe dispassionate debates or measured considerations, followed by a mutual agreement to keep things the way they are.

                  Same result, different method... and a mistake to think that "quiet" isn't a fight.

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                  • #69
                    Re: Working on spec?

                    Originally posted by Deion22 View Post
                    I agree, people should be humble and it's not cowardice to accept a paycheck and have your work changed. But I do take offense when people say you are a control freak if you care about how your work, and words are written or presented. Let me name some very well known and successful "control freaks" people speak of.

                    Michael Mann, Quentin Tarrantino, Martin Scorsese, David Milch, David Simon, David Chase, Tony Gilroy and I could name many more, have been labeled "control freaks" before. These are people who are creative geniuses in my book, that care deeply about their work and how it's presented. Are they wrong about being that precious about their work? Hell no, they aren't. They have fought tooth and nail for their creative property. I respect the sh*t out of them for that. It's a balance, you can't bend over for a producer always because a check is involved. And you have to realize that making a movie or TV series is a group effort, that will involve compromise.

                    But, there is nothing wrong with fighting for your work and making sure it is presented in the best light and according to your vision. There is a balance between being humble, and an artist who strives for artistic integrity in the work they shed sweat, blood, and tears for. Remember that. Nothing is black and white.

                    There's also a reason many writers have gravitated to TV, because you have much more control of the quality of your series and making sure your vision of your series stays in tact. It's why I love TV. The writer gets a seat at the royal table, with the kings and queens who run Hollywood.

                    One of the best shows on TV, TRUE DETECTIVE was created by Nic Pizzalotto. He said he wanted to be in TV so he could control his vision. He turned down money and offers to maintain control, and was able to secure one of the best deals for a young writer. There's nothing wrong with taking a stand if you really believe in something. And sometimes you can be paid a small fortune for doing that like Nic Pizzalotto was.
                    Fantastic post, Deion. To clarify: Eszterhas was the only person I was referring to when talking about control freaks. I absolutely believe in fighting for your vision, I just don't see it as a moral issue (which cowardice would relate to). I go about 50/50 on the trait myself: some scripts/scenes/lines I'm hardcore control freak about, and others I'm open to change.

                    When I was younger, I wrote in collaboration with someone, and when he proposed changes to the draft I turned in, I rejected them flat-out and the relationship dissolved. I've grown a little wiser since then, and when I wrote on assignment from a producer friend out in LA, I was very open to the changes he suggested, while still fighting for scenes and moments I believed in from the original draft.

                    I think it's a balance, and some of the best work has come from either side of the fence. I happen to think the "control freak" label isn't used so much when the writer has a proven body of work to back him/her up (Tarantino, et al).

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                    • #70
                      Re: Working on spec?

                      Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                      Amen.

                      I gotta say... to the name-callers...

                      ...this stuff is hard enough without being called a coward or control freak. Nothing makes me grumpier than some people without success yelling at other people without success about why they're not successful, or "doing it wrong," or cowards or control freaks.

                      Go sell some stuff. Go get some jobs. Go earn some credits. Take your lumps, learn the ropes, become a soldier in the trenches.

                      Then you can go yell at people.

                      But I'll tell you... odds are you won't want to anymore. You'll want to give everyone a hug and say, "It's harder and worse than you thought... I'm so sorry... hang in there... love yourself as best you can."

                      Nicely put.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Working on spec?

                        This discussion reminds me of the film: THE BIG PICTURE w/ Kevin Bacon.

                        I don't think you (universal meaning) can call someone a coward for selling out, but you can call them a sell out -- unless the sole purpose for them is money, in which case, they are simply a businessman.

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                        • #72
                          Getting back on track

                          Just so I understand the lay of the land.......

                          Assuming you do decide to take up the offer to develop an idea (it could be yours, it could be theirs) with a prodco where do you stand in regards to giving way/standing firm? Full disclosure I've been talking to one of the top pros here about this but his time is limited and he's already spent loads with me so I'm posting here.

                          I had mused that you're pretty much duty bound to accept notes given by a prodco or risk killing your career by garnering a bad rep but he said: "You're not duty bound to incorporate anyone's notes. Discuss them neutrally, and do the ones you like. Ignore the ones you don't. When you write on spec, everyone recognizes that YOU are rolling the dice and betting on yourself. You're not employed. You're the boss. You can't kill your career by ignoring notes. You can only kill your career by writing a less-than-good script".

                          Though I understand why he said that it still seems you would in effect actually be writing for them (despite not being hired and being your own boss) because otherwise there's no point in them wanting to work with you and that's why I assumed that if you ignore notes you don't agree with that you'll get the bad rep.

                          Now I accept/reject notes on my own work from my manager because it's mine all mine and his job is just to promote it. If the same holds true for producers and execs then that's fine. I was just under the impression that they'll want to be creatively involved (as per the treatment I got sent for a project they were working on) and that they'll only move forward on a project if it's what they want to make and especially if it's their idea to begin with.

                          To put it another way, if I have full autonomy to write what I want and reject what I want with (as the pro affirmed) - just as with my own stuff - why would execs/producers even want to meet and discuss ideas for development? Why not just wait for my manger to send them my spec and then run with it to the studios to get a deal in place?
                          M.A.G.A.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Working on spec?

                            Okaaaaaaay then, let's try another question instead.

                            If you work on spec with a producer (whether the project is yours, theirs or joint) do they have any claim over the work such as "story by" credit, taking the project (and your script) to another writer, or stopping you from selling it?

                            I would assume not because you're not under hire and you're the one doing all the work and any ideas/notes they may have are just that and it's you that makes them real. IMO suggestions to have the demon come from a parallel dimension instead of hell or strengthen the love/hate chemistry between the leads does not equate to writing credit. And as for specific ideas - ie: Elvis gets reanimated by a demonic cult - ideas can't be copyrighted so again, I can't see how anyone can claim ownership in any way.

                            I know "story by" will only apply once a film is made and is a relatively minor issue once it gets to that stage but it's still good to know what the score is. I also assume you'd hammer the ground rules out before you agree to work together but again, it's good to know up front - especially so you don't (a) get taken to the cleaners or (b) state unrealistic provisos.
                            M.A.G.A.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Working on spec?

                              Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                              If you work on spec with a producer (whether the project is yours, theirs or joint) do they have any claim over the work such as "story by" credit, taking the project (and your script) to another writer, or stopping you from selling it?
                              Some of this gets tricky.

                              Generally you want an agreement with them that specifies what happens if they fail to set up your script. Who owns what? They wouldn't get a story by credit unless they, you know, wrote.

                              Chances are they're attached as a producer forever, but again, this is something that you need to negotiate with them as you start. In the worst case scenario, you end up with a script you can't sell (because you don't own the underlying material) and they end up with an idea they can't do anything with (because your work on it is substantial, and they don't own it, and it would be extremely difficult to write something that was completely independent of your work.)

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                              • #75
                                Re: Working on spec?

                                Just out of curiosity, how many other peeps in HW work "for free?" Actors audition, I imagine directors have to pitch their take, and maybe set designers and such have to come up with ideas / drawings, correct? So everybody has to invest a little bit of free time and effort to get a gig... common sense. But to write a whole script?

                                Several years ago I shot a short film, and I paid everyone out of my meager budget except for the actors and the PAs. In those circumstances, it was sort of understood that actors were building their portfolios and PAs were looking for on set experience. Yet I still felt bad about not paying the actors --even though they told me it was absolutely totally OK (my lead actor still gets compliments from HW about her performance in my little film --and, might I add, about the writer and director --), so that makes me feel better).

                                But that was ME, a single operation, day-job-holding, savings-depleting, credit-card-maxing-out, writer-director-producer-set designer person!

                                How do major companies like Plan B and presumably the company in this thread get away with asking people to work for free??

                                Perhaps because writers are willing to bend over?
                                Last edited by Rantanplan; 03-13-2014, 08:37 PM.

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