A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

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  • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    So my question to you is, setting the label of feminist aside, and aside from only pointing out the institutionalized bias of the sitch, what proactive thing can be done to get that Wonder Woman or female lead Ghostbuster, film made?

    Suggestions: Start an online movement, perhaps? Get people to sign a petition addressed to Marvel, become a spokesperson for the Wonder Woman film and have your name associated with the movement taking on all of the inherent risks? No offense, Emily, and I say this a woman clearly older than you who has been around the block many times, until a woman is ready to fall on her sword and risk personal rejection to get this done, calling oneself a feminist won't make it happen.
    Wow. You actually dropped the "age makes my opinion more valid" card. Offense taken.

    I never said anything about you personally in my post. I was saying that FOR ME, I am not afraid to call myself a feminist. Your own personal feelings are just that - your own. You reasons for not calling yourself a feminist are your own. They don't concern me.

    As for what can be done, you ask? I don't know, maybe starting a female- focused screenwriting podcast that serves a forum for female voices who are actually creating in Hollywood? Is that the kind of proactive thing you were looking for?
    Last edited by emily blake; 08-06-2014, 09:52 AM.
    Chicks Who Script podcast

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    • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

      Originally posted by emily blake View Post
      I'm a feminist.

      Feminism isn't only about government policies (and I disagree that the government has done all it can do, especially in countries in the world where women still don't even have basic rights, but that's a political issue).

      I'm a feminist because Marvel still refuses to make a movie with a female lead, and because as soon as the idea of a female Ghostbusters came up, the Internet immediately filled with articles about how horrifying it was to think women could wear proton packs. And that's just a typical day in the neighborhood.

      If you choose not to identify with that word, then that's your call, but for me, I am not going to be afraid to say it. I am a feminist. I believe in feminism.
      I'm a feminist, also.

      Now on to the Ghostbusters sequel. Without the original cast, and with such a long passage of time, I don't think a Ghostbusters sequel is really called for, at this point.

      HOWEVER, if they're going to do one, I think an all female lead cast would be the best, and freshest, way to approach it. But the writing, directing, and the casting of the female leads had better be good. Otherwise, if they put out a stupid movie that doesn't do well at the box office, you know what they're going to blame - the casting of female leads.

      I, myself, can imagine a really good, fun, updated movie with female leads - and so hope it wouldn't be just another bad sequel. Which can be said of any sequel - but they never blame the bad ones on the casting of male leads.
      "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

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      • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

        Originally posted by cshel View Post
        I'm a feminist, also.

        Now on to the Ghostbusters sequel. Without the original cast, and with such a long passage of time, I don't think a Ghostbusters sequel is really called for, at this point.

        HOWEVER, if they're going to do one, I think an all female lead cast would be the best, and freshest, way to approach it. But the writing, directing, and the casting of the female leads had better be good. Otherwise, if they put out a stupid movie that doesn't do well at the box office, you know what they're going to blame - the casting of female leads.

        I, myself, can imagine a really good, fun, updated movie with female leads - and so hope it wouldn't be just another bad sequel. Which can be said of any sequel - but they never blame the bad ones on the casting of male leads.
        I agree with all of this.

        But I am heartened by Paul Fieg leading the charge. I loved his comment on Twitter: "Interesting how making a movie with men in the lead roles is normal but making a movie with women in the lead roles is a 'gimmick.' #its2014"
        Chicks Who Script podcast

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        • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

          Sony is working on a female super-hero movie from the Marvel universe.

          http://www.deadline.com/2014/08/fema...ider-man-sony/

          Which is great, of course, but if I was a girl, or a feminist, I think I would eventually get tired of the idea of celebrating the fact that female-lead films can make box-office, but only if they're skinny and young and wearing leather and spandex (seriously, how about a film for adults?).

          I am aware that there was a bru-ha-ha over an article about the Ghostbusters thing published the other day, but I refuse to read it.

          I believe that the people who publish antagonistic articles to garner 'hate' clicks are the same as people who protest tweet so they can get sympathy 'likes'.

          If you want to "do something' about gender disparity, go write a great movie that no one can say no to making.

          Originally posted by cshel View Post
          but they never blame the bad ones on the casting of male leads.
          Occasionally they do. Please see The Green Lantern.

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          • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

            Originally posted by emily blake View Post
            Wow. You actually dropped the "age and experience makes me automatically more correct" card. Offense taken.

            I never said anything about you personally in my post. I was saying that FOR ME, I am not afraid to call myself a feminist. Your own personal feelings are just that - your own. You reasons for not calling yourself a feminist are your own. They don't concern me.

            As for what can be done, you ask? I don't know, maybe starting a female- focused screenwriting podcast? Is that the kind of proactive thing you were looking for?
            Hey -- I talk to men and women older than me, and younger than me, all the time to find out what they know to see how it can serve me. I pick their brains. I ask them to talk about mistakes they've made and advise me on how to avoid the same mistakes. If you don't think any of my experience has value to you, fine.

            However, you more than inferred, twice, that I was "afraid" to call myself a feminist. How else should I take that when you make a point to say, twice, you're not "afraid." Then Ms. Canoli jumped on your lead, too, taking a whack at my level of education.

            I'm not insulted. I actually find it highly amusing that anyone would say, "I'm not afraid ...." in any context. I prefer, "Don't tell me who you are, or what you are, show me."

            I have a mission I stick to every day of my life -- to speak up when I see any situation where I can help advance women and protect children in our society. Every single day. I did so just yesterday, in fact, and risked losing a lucrative client account (I didn't). A couple of weeks ago I risked getting punched out by a man who was yelling at his little girl in a store by butting in, politely, softly, and asking how he would feel if another man yelled at his daughter that way. And I always risk being labeled a ball buster or any other negative terms that have been hurled at me over the years, to do so. And I don't need to announce I'm a feminist in prelude to continue doing so.

            Edited to add: Your podcast is wonderful. Using it to focus on getting Wonder Woman made could work if you develop a grassroots marketing game plan to do so. I could help with such a plan specific to Wonder Woman. But that would require me pulling the "older, more experienced" card and I dare not do that again.
            Last edited by sc111; 08-06-2014, 10:17 AM.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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            • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

              Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
              Occasionally they do. Please see The Green Lantern.


              But they did not blame the casting of a male lead - they blamed the particular actor that was cast as the male lead. I don't think anybody said the problem was they should have cast a female Green Lantern instead.
              "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

              Comment


              • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post

                Which is great, of course, but if I was a girl, or a feminist, I think I would eventually get tired of the idea of celebrating the fact that female-lead films can make box-office, but only if they're skinny and young and wearing leather and spandex (seriously, how about a film for adults?).
                Yes. Good point. For anyone interested, Toni Collette and Thomas Haden Church co-star in a nice little film for grownups, "Lucky Them" on VOD and in limited theaters.

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                • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                  Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                  Hey -- I talk to men and women older than me, and younger than me, all the time to find out what they know to see how it can serve me. I pick their brains. I ask them to talk about mistakes they've made and advise me on how to avoid the same mistakes. If you don't think any of my experience has value to you, fine.

                  However, you more than inferred, twice, that I was "afraid" to call myself a feminist. How else should I take that when you make a point to say, twice, you're not "afraid." Then Ms. Canoli jumped on your lead, too, taking a whack at my level of education.

                  I'm not insulted. I actually find it highly amusing that anyone would say, "I'm not afraid ...." in any context. I prefer, "Don't tell me who you are, or what you are, show me."

                  I have a mission I stick to every day of my life -- to speak up when I see any situation where I can help advance women and protect children in our society. Every single day. I did so just yesterday, in fact, and risked losing a lucrative client account (I didn't). A couple of weeks ago I risked getting punched out by a man who was yelling at his little girl in a store by butting in, politely, softly, and asking how he would feel if another man yelled at his daughter that way. And I always risk being labeled a ball buster or any other negative terms that have been hurled at me over the years, to do so. And I don't need to announce I'm a feminist in prelude to continue doing so.

                  Edited to add: Your podcast is wonderful. Using it to focus on getting Wonder Woman made could work if you develop a grassroots marketing game plan to do so. I could help with such a plan specific to Wonder Woman. But that would require me pulling the "older, more experienced" card and I dare not do that again.
                  Allow me to clear up some fallacies in this.

                  1) In a world where this exists: http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/ my being unafraid to call myself a feminist is not the same as me saying that you are afraid to call yourself a feminist. You see how one of those things is about me and one of those things is about you? Which one did I say? The thing about me.

                  2) Telling me that my point is invalid because you are presumably older and "more experienced" although I'm not entirely sure which of your experiences is supposed to trump mine - it is not the same thing as me saying I don't value your experience. In fact, the opposite is true. You are invalidating my experience and knowledge. It's incredibly condescending, and since you prefaced the comment with "no offense" I suspect you already knew that.

                  3) The mission of our podcast is not to get Wonder Woman made. It is to give a voice to women in this industry. We are thinking bigger than Wonder Woman, and we are doing exactly what we set out to do. Despite being younger, we are capable of making our own intelligent decisions and focusing on long term goals. The help we need right now is for people to get the word out and give us reviews and suggest guests and topics. Those kinds of things are extremely helpful. If you'd like to help us, those are all things we can really use. The rest we have covered. And that's what I'd have told you had you asked. It's the same thing I've told several people who have asked how they could help. And I love all the people who have asked to help us - it's been amazing all the support we have gotten.

                  That's great that you speak up for people in public. I do that too. All human being should. I wish more did.
                  Last edited by emily blake; 08-06-2014, 11:09 AM.
                  Chicks Who Script podcast

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                  • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                    That's all well and fine. You can call yourself an acrobat, too, but unless you prove it by doing flips on the highwire, it means nothing.

                    I've seen women call themselves a feminist but in all their actions, especially in the way they tear down other women without a thought (like what you just implied about me), prove they are not feminists.
                    It's not a tear-down. You go to great lengths to say you're not a feminist. I believe you. But for some reason, you get riled at people who say they are feminists and suggest they need to prove it to you. I got 99 problems today and that ain't one.

                    And there was no intention to knock your education level. By educated, all I mean is anyone who can read and access books. Anyone who is able to make an informed statement about who is or isn't a feminist.

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                    • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                      Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                      Allow me to clear up some fallacies in this.

                      1) In a world where this exists: http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/ my being unafraid to call myself a feminist is not the same as me saying that you are afraid to call yourself a feminist. You see how one of those things is about me and one of those things is about you? Which one did I say? The thing about me.

                      2) Telling me that my point is invalid because you are presumably older and "more experienced" although I'm not entirely sure which of your experiences is supposed to trump mine - it is not the same thing as me saying I don't value your experience. In fact, the opposite is true. You are invalidating my experience and knowledge. It's incredibly condescending.

                      3) The mission of our podcast is not to get Wonder Woman made. It is to give a voice to women in this industry. We are thinking bigger than Wonder Woman, and we are doing exactly what we set out to do. Despite being younger, we are capable of making our own intelligent decisions and focusing on long term goals. The help we need right now is for people to get the word out and give us reviews and suggest guests and topics. Those kinds of things are extremely helpful. If you'd like to help us, those are all things we can really use. The rest we have covered.

                      That's great that you speak up for people in public. I do that too. All human being should. I wish more did.

                      Look, we'll likely get nowhere on this, you and I. But I'll give it one last shot. I went into great detail as to why I don't label myself a feminist. And your response was:

                      If you choose not to identify with that word, then that's your call, but for me, I am not going to be afraid to say it. I am a feminist. I believe in feminism.
                      If you can not see how your choice of words could be seen as characterizing me as being "afraid" to use the term, feminist, I don't know what else to say except that's how it appeared to me.

                      Now, I reread the statement I made which you took as me invalidating you and I will own that my poor choice of words could have given you that impression. I apologize for my choice of words. But I stand by my sentiment: the title, feminist, means nothing unless a woman is willing to go to the mat for what she believes and asks for what she wants. This entire thread is about women giving up or backing off or being paralyzed by failure. I know many self-proclaimed feminists who suffer in these ways.

                      Frankly, I've also met and interacted with many self-proclaimed "feminists" who, because they had no mentors, made so many mistakes and outright blunders in business that they made it worse for other women. And, truth be told, I don't want to be painted with the same brush. Not out of fear but rather because I understand the power, for good and bad, of emotionally charged phrases.

                      As for item #3, I'm really amazed, in a smiling, eyebrow-raised, amused way, that you see no value in getting pointers from someone with two decades of marketing experience.

                      Edited to add: If anyone out there with two decades of successful writing experiece, scripts or prose fiction, feels inspired to give me personal pointers on my work, please PM me.
                      Last edited by sc111; 08-06-2014, 11:42 AM.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                      • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                        Originally posted by canela View Post
                        It's not a tear-down. You go to great lengths to say you're not a feminist. I believe you. But for some reason, you get riled at people who say they are feminists and suggest they need to prove it to you. I got 99 problems today and that ain't one.

                        And there was no intention to knock your education level. By educated, all I mean is anyone who can read and access books. Anyone who is able to make an informed statement about who is or isn't a feminist.
                        I didn't say "I'm not a feminist." I said I don't self-identify as a feminist. These are two different things.

                        I don't ask anyone to "prove" anything to me. I gave an opinion that in this new era of feminism we are up against insidious, covert, instutionalized sexism and it requires a far different game plan.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                        Comment


                        • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                          Look, we'll likely get nowhere on this, you and I. But I'll give it one last shot. I went into great detail as to why I don't label myself a feminist. And your response was:



                          If you can not see how your choice of words could be seen as characterizing me as being "afraid" to use the term, feminist, I don't know what else to say except that's how it appeared to me.

                          Now, I reread the statement I made which you took as me invalidating you and I will own that my poor choice of words could have given you that impression. I apologize for my choice of words. But I stand by my sentiment: the title, feminist, means nothing unless a woman is willing to go to the mat for what she believes and asks for what she wants. This entire thread is about women giving up or backing off or being paralyzed by failure. I know many self-proclaimed feminists who suffer in these ways.

                          Frankly, I've met and interacted with many self-proclaimed "feminists" who, because they had no mentors, made so many mistakes and outright blunders in business that they made it worse for other women. And, truth be told, I don;t want to be painted with the same brush. Not out of fear but rather because I understand the power, for good and bad, of emotionally charged phrases.

                          As for item #3, I'm really amazed, in a smiling, eyebrow-raised, amused way, that you see no value in getting pointers from someone with two decades of marketing experience.
                          Some women who call themselves feminists are fallible human beings, so you do not feel like calling yourself a feminist out of - I guess I shouldn't say fear, but maybe apprehension? - of being associated with them. Is that right?

                          To my knowledge, you never offered to use your marketing expertise to help us with our podcast. You raise your eyebrows because I turned down an offer you never made.
                          Chicks Who Script podcast

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                          • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                            Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                            Some women who call themselves feminists are fallible human beings, so you do not feel like calling yourself a feminist out of - I guess I shouldn't say fear, but maybe apprehension? - of being associated with them. Is that right?

                            To my knowledge, you never offered to use your marketing expertise to help us with our podcast. You raise your eyebrows because I turned down an offer you never made.
                            I offered my experience in regard to Wonder Woman because it seemed to mean a lot to you, in the post I responded to and in previous discussions of Wonder Woman where you expressed a desire to write that script. So shoot me. If you really want my feedback on your podcast (I've listened to the first and third) I'll PM you upon your request but be forewarned I will point out what I see as areas in need of improvement. Ball's in your court, girlfriend.
                            Last edited by sc111; 08-06-2014, 01:05 PM.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                            • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                              An addendum. As for my not initiating an offer to advise you on the podcast when first launched, this is true. I apologize. My only excuse is that it's summer, and with a kid home, ferrying her to dance lessons and other summer activities, while also juggling work for a couple clients (I worked til 10 pm last night to catch up), it did not occur to me. Again, I apologize. However, you know my background. You could have asked. Which is directly related to my earlier posts: ask people for what you need. The worst anyone can say is, "No."

                              I'll bow out of this thread now because I have to finish a boring project which I've been breaking away from to post here. PM me and I'll get back to you tomorrow.
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                              • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                                People absolutely should ask for help when they need it. When we started we asked several people for advice, and we got all kinds of great suggestions. We had no idea how to do the audio or to post episodes or how to maintain a website - and women were largely responsible for helping us figure all of those things out. Our web designer is an invaluable British woman named Helen Kelly who busted her butt to get it done faster than I would have thought possible. And as a result, our audience is already way bigger than we were expecting.

                                And to return to the original topic, that's what this is all about. Women need to see other women succeeding and helping each other out in public. If you are told every day that your chance of success is low and there's nothing you can do about it, you're going to believe that to be true. But our hope is that if you hear stories of women trying and succeeding - and recovering from failure too, for that matter - women will be more encouraged to put themselves out there more often.

                                We complained about not hearing enough women talk about making movies, so we did something about it. Is it perfect? Nope. But we're learning as we go and having a really fun time doing it.

                                So the moral of the story is, don't let anyone tell you what you can't do. Who cares if you're a woman? Who cares what other women have or have not done? You want to do it, go freaking do it. If you fail - so be it. You pick yourself up and try again.
                                Chicks Who Script podcast

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