What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

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  • #46
    Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

    Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
    Or you putting words in your post maybe if I may refresh your memory -





    Funny to you. Unfortunately, not to me or the vast majority of people who could take or leave it.

    Again I'm not saying your insights are wrong about what's important in a great script. I'm saying Annie Hall is not that script.

    Three things-

    My post you quoted begins with the words 'I'll give you one' as in one of many. Obviously not my criterion or the be all end all answer.

    Second, your opinion that Annie Hall is not funny to the 'vast majority' is completely negated by the fact that it's #4 on the AFI funniest films list.

    Third, why did you completely skip over the part where you were completely wrong about Annie Hall having something to do with 'Jewish schlubs'?

    You have to be able to recognize greatness before you can even try to emulate it.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

      Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
      Three things-

      My post you quoted begins with the words 'I'll give you one' as in one of many. Obviously not my criterion or the be all end all answer.

      Second, your opinion that Annie Hall is not funny to the 'vast majority' is completely negated by the fact that it's #4 on the AFI funniest films list.

      Third, why did you completely skip over the part where you were completely wrong about Annie Hall having something to do with 'Jewish schlubs'?

      You have to be able to recognize greatness before you can even try to emulate it.
      AFI? Pretentious critics at best. Certainly not your average movie goer. Movies like Wedding Crashers are a million times funnier than high brow artsy Woody Allen.

      I'm sorry maybe I have the wrong Woody Allen, but is there a film where he's NOT a Jewish schlub?

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

        Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
        And what was that in Annie Hall? That Jewish schlubs like Woody are insecure when they outkick their coverage in terms of dating?

        Look, while the academy awards are nice does it really mean it's the be all end all of great film making? I mean Shawshank got nominated for 7 and didn't win a single one, are you telling me that Annie Hall is somehow a better film? Clearly that's not even remotely the case.

        If your criterion for a great script is learning something you didn't know about the human condition then Annie Hall fails that test. It didn't teach me anything I didn't know or reveal any new basic human truths.

        Sorry.
        Well, everyone knows Annie Hall wouldn't have won any oscars if Woody Allen weren't jewish.

        There's just so many damn jews in hollywood and they all voted for him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

          Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
          AFI? Pretentious critics at best. Certainly not your average movie goer. Movies like Wedding Crashers are a million times funnier than high brow artsy Woody Allen.

          I'm sorry maybe I have the wrong Woody Allen, but is there a film where he's NOT a Jewish schlub?
          I heard there's one in development in which he'll play an evangelical christian. Morgan Freeman just signed on to play a honkey.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

            Originally posted by mariot View Post
            Well, everyone knows Annie Hall wouldn't have won any oscars if Woody Allen weren't jewish.

            There's just so many damn jews in hollywood and they all voted for him.

            Just to be clear I don't think it has anything to do with ethnicity. I'm not anti-Semitic at all. Anti-boring overrated movie? Yes. Anti-Semitic? No thanks.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

              Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
              And what was that in Annie Hall? That Jewish schlubs like Woody are insecure when they outkick their coverage in terms of dating?

              .
              You also have to consider a film's greatness in the context of its time, its era. In the social climate in which it was made. And even the city.

              Annie Hall spoke to all those things within the dating climate in NYC among intellectual urbanites in the 70s.

              Everyone was in serial relationships, and quickly opting to live with each other (rebellion against their parents generation who married post ww2).

              It was an era of a lot of fearless, harmless sex, no fear of pregnancy (the pill) and still several years away from fear of AIDS or herpes.

              Essentially, people were fvcking like bunnies -- even highly-educated, upper class people - it was the era of the one-night-stand, the era of "finding yourself," yet trying to intellectualize it at the same time. And seeing a shrink was practically a fashion accessory. How else could you chat at cocktail parties, "My therapist says ...."

              Woody Allen exposed all of these things - ridiculed the facade, the inconsistencies, the contradictions - in Annie Hall, and he was pitch perfect.

              No surprise it resonated with many in that era, in that age group, and during that academy year.

              It's also no surprise someone in their 20s in 2010 doesn't "get" what's "great" about it.

              However -- I'd put Annie Hall up against Knocked Up any day.

              Gone With The Wind, for example. For years I avoided watching it straight through. It's a long a$$ movie. But about a year ago I forced myself to watch from start to finish and even took notes.

              What amazed me is how complex, and strong, the Scarlett character was -- the original diva who then took some servious hits and her perfect world dissolved away. She's then forced to dig deep within and take on challenges.

              She was highly flawed, a biotch and yet "we" could empathize with her undying love for the other guy who never deserved her love. And we can root for her to love Rhett because "we" knew he was good for her.

              On so many levels, GWTW is a perfect story with a very strong, complex female lead (where are they nowadays?). The Rhett character was far more complex than any romantic drama male characters in the last 10 years.

              Of course, the pacing is slower than we like, taking place over many years... all techniques which have fallen out of fashion. But - damn - this story has many layers and the characters are still compelling FOR OVER 70 YEARS!

              As a romantic drama I'd put Gone With the Wind up against The Notebook any day.

              And Star Wars -- I'd put that on the list of great films, too. It's also a layered story that still holds up yet, at the same time, was amazing in its own era.
              Last edited by sc111; 09-21-2010, 06:37 AM. Reason: mind blip
              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                First of all, thank you, sc111 for being civilised and putting a halt to the nonsensical flame war. For those who would like to continue:

                - Fvck you, but I never did like The Shawshank Redemption; that sh*t just bored me to tears. You want to talk about hope? I hear people even now talking about it being their favourite film and I scrub that name off the list of those to go watch a film with - us enjoying the same thing is hopeless.

                - Fvck Star Wars - were it not for the toys that film would've been forgotten quicker than Sinbad! And you know what? I preferred Action Force figures.

                - Fvck idiots flaming Woody Allen if they can't dig his insight into people - the man was a million years before all these Mentalist bullsh*t programmes which are supposed to reveal psychological truisms to the public and make them feel that little bit smarter. Sh*t, I watch an episode of some dumb-arse "psychology" programme and I feel stupid... for having done so!
                Hey, I think Vincent D'Onofrio's great, but introducing a "psychologist" into Law & Order reduced its quality a 1,000 times! It went from logic and procedure to "I Know what what you're doing/thinking and fvck you, but I'm smarter" and the retarded "I confess" bullsh*t of other abhorrent programmes such as the truly despicable Cold Case. More confessions in that one than in a Catholic church!

                - Fvck Woody Allen, he's a sexual deviant.

                - Fvck idiots bitching about empty words and platitudes - what were you after, the fvcking meaning of life? Why not get one?

                - What makes a film great? See my post on the first page and understand that it's two things: marketing and cha-ching! You don't have either, you can successfully advertise, and without making the masses aware of your project, you'll never get those fat arses in the seats.
                What's the point in having the best film EVER to your name when nobody's ever seen it? Hell, never going to.

                Now carry on bitching or get back to A) the writing you probably should be working on, or B) helping others here who need it.

                Peace.
                Cufk, Tish, Sips.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                  Originally posted by Grandmaster View Post
                  First of all, thank you, sc111 for being civilised and putting a halt to the nonsensical flame war. For those who would like to continue:

                  - Fvck you, but I never did like The Shawshank Redemption; that sh*t just bored me to tears. You want to talk about hope? I hear people even now talking about it being their favourite film and I scrub that name off the list of those to go watch a film with - us enjoying the same thing is hopeless.

                  - Fvck Star Wars - were it not for the toys that film would've been forgotten quicker than Sinbad! And you know what? I preferred Action Force figures.

                  - Fvck idiots flaming Woody Allen if they can't dig his insight into people - the man was a million years before all these Mentalist bullsh*t programmes which are supposed to reveal psychological truisms to the public and make them feel that little bit smarter. Sh*t, I watch an episode of some dumb-arse "psychology" programme and I feel stupid... for having done so!
                  Hey, I think Vincent D'Onofrio's great, but introducing a "psychologist" into Law & Order reduced its quality a 1,000 times! It went from logic and procedure to "I Know what what you're doing/thinking and fvck you, but I'm smarter" and the retarded "I confess" bullsh*t of other abhorrent programmes such as the truly despicable Cold Case. More confessions in that one than in a Catholic church!

                  - Fvck Woody Allen, he's a sexual deviant.

                  - Fvck idiots bitching about empty words and platitudes - what were you after, the fvcking meaning of life? Why not get one?

                  - What makes a film great? See my post on the first page and understand that it's two things: marketing and cha-ching! You don't have either, you can successfully advertise, and without making the masses aware of your project, you'll never get those fat arses in the seats.
                  What's the point in having the best film EVER to your name when nobody's ever seen it? Hell, never going to.

                  Now carry on bitching or get back to A) the writing you probably should be working on, or B) helping others here who need it.

                  Peace.
                  Pointless.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                    It's also no surprise someone in their 20s in 2010 doesn't "get" what's "great" about it.
                    I just gotta say... Yes, I'm 21, but I like films from every decade.

                    Every decade. And (see previous posts) am a lover of international films, for example Aki Kurismaki's Drifting Clouds, Francois Truffaut's The 400 Blows, Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck's The Lives of Others, and Shigehiro Ozawa's The Street Fighter.
                    ...
                    ...
                    ...

                    It's just that Woody Allen sucks eggs compared to George Lucas. You want to talk about historical significance? Capturing "the times?" Okay, well, let's just level the playing field...

                    Woody Allen's Annie Hall is the equivalent of Dennis Hopper's Easy Rider and Colors, or Colin Higgin's 9 to 5, but that's all it is, whereas Star Wars IV is, well.....Star Wars IV.

                    I understand saying that Annie Hall is emblematic of the times, but that doesn't make it special or great. A lot of movies do that! It's really just a Woody Allen movie. That is all.

                    EDIT: Look at my icon, for Pete's sake, I LOVE The Fiddler on the Roof. I've been to, like, 10 different showings of the musical in the last few years. And I watch the movie all the time.
                    Last edited by fisherman; 09-21-2010, 08:19 AM.
                    "Right now it sounds like an urban Idiocracy meets Big in The Matrix (with a dash of Tron?)." --Mountain Goat, commenting on my screenplay ZONED OUT

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                      You also have to consider a film's greatness in the context of its time, its era. In the social climate in which it was made. And even the city.

                      Annie Hall spoke to all those things within the dating climate in NYC among intellectual urbanites in the 70s.

                      Everyone was in serial relationships, and quickly opting to live with each other (rebellion against their parents generation who married post ww2).

                      It was an era of a lot of fearless, harmless sex, no fear of pregnancy (the pill) and still several years away from fear of AIDS or herpes.

                      Essentially, people were fvcking like bunnies -- even highly-educated, upper class people - it was the era of the one-night-stand, the era of "finding yourself," yet trying to intellectualize it at the same time. And seeing a shrink was practically a fashion accessory. How else could you chat at cocktail parties, "My therapist says ...."

                      Woody Allen exposed all of these things - ridiculed the facade, the inconsistencies, the contradictions - in Annie Hall, and he was pitch perfect.

                      No surprise it resonated with many in that era, in that age group, and during that academy year.

                      It's also no surprise someone in their 20s in 2010 doesn't "get" what's "great" about it.

                      However -- I'd put Annie Hall up against Knocked Up any day.

                      Gone With The Wind, for example. For years I avoided watching it straight through. It's a long a$$ movie. But about a year ago I forced myself to watch from start to finish and even took notes.

                      What amazed me is how complex, and strong, the Scarlett character was -- the original diva who then took some servious hits and her perfect world dissolved away. She's then forced to dig deep within and take on challenges.

                      She was highly flawed, a biotch and yet "we" could empathize with her undying love for the other guy who never deserved her love. And we can root for her to love Rhett because "we" knew he was good for her.

                      On so many levels, GWTW is a perfect story with a very strong, complex female lead (where are they nowadays?). The Rhett character was far more complex than any romantic drama male characters in the last 10 years.

                      Of course, the pacing is slower than we like, taking place over many years... all techniques which have fallen out of fashion. But - damn - this story has many layers and the characters are still compelling FOR OVER 70 YEARS!

                      As a romantic drama I'd put Gone With the Wind up against The Notebook any day.

                      And Star Wars -- I'd put that on the list of great films, too. It's also a layered story that still holds up yet, at the same time, was amazing in its own era.
                      Good points.

                      However, don't misinterpret what I'm saying here. Annie Hall may have been a great film for its time (CERTAINLY better than Knocked Up which was tripe) but the fact that, as you say, a 20 year old today can't watch it and understand why it was so good shows just how limited it really is compared to a Star Wars.

                      The universality of the appeal just isn't there. As I've said, doesn't mean Woody isn't good at what he does. Just means what he does is a very specific thing that doesn't translate well to more than a very limited audience.

                      I'm not a 20 something by any stretch and I've had a rich tapestry of relationships and Annie Hall SHOULD speak to me and yet given the choice of that or Star Wars to watch on tv I'm ALWAYS going to choose Star Wars because it's just a more engaging film.

                      There are movies that just speak across the ages like Casablanca for example that just work, on every level - the love story, the tension, the drama, the action. They just work. Now is Star Wars a Casablanca? Probably not. But it's a lot closer than Annie Hall.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                        I totally forgot about this thread and I came back to this board to ask about something else and I see this thread with this heave of debates

                        Perhaps a great story is something that sparks debate once the credit role begins.
                        IMDB

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                          Originally posted by Grandmaster View Post
                          First of all, thank you, sc111 for being civilised and putting a halt to the nonsensical flame war. For those who would like to continue:

                          - Fvck idiots bitching about empty words and platitudes - what were you after, the fvcking meaning of life? Why not get one?
                          Oh, snap, son. Get a life? I think I've been burned....

                          I like this guy. He thanks sc111 for putting an end to some imagined 'flame war' (what is this, anyway, 2003?) then he proceeds to unleash vulgarities and insults directly at other posters (I assume you're calling me an idiot, since you directly quoted one of my posts). And where are the mods when you need one? Oh, that's right. They're busy pulling Greenwood's panties out of a twist in some other thread.

                          Anyway, Grandmaster, I'm gonna take the high road here and not resort to potty words, but your post is even less valuable to this writing community as all the other empty ones I was talking about before.

                          The way that you learn from great scripts is to take them apart and do a little reverse engineering. But there is even more to learn from bad scripts by doing the same thing.

                          If any of the people here bashing Annie Hall could articulate specifics about why it isn't funny, what's wrong with the plot, which jokes fall flat, which could have been done better, etc., you'd be on your way to being a comedy writer.

                          But until I see someone do that (not holding my breath), I'll remain convinced that this board is populated by wanna-be's who should be posting in the Worst. Movie. Ever. threads over at Imdb. It's so much more fun to just dismiss someone as a schlubby Jew than to construct an original thought.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                            Originally posted by Grandmaster View Post
                            Fvck you, but I never did like The Shawshank Redemption; that sh*t just bored me to tears. You want to talk about hope? I hear people even now talking about it being their favourite film and I scrub that name off the list of those to go watch a film with - us enjoying the same thing is hopeless.

                            Oh, sorry, forgot something. This might be the funniest thing I've ever read.

                            You're attacking a universally acknowledged great film by posting something that doesn't even make any sense, grammatically or any other way.

                            And you're a writer?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                              And now that I'm thinking about Annie Hall and how great it is, does anyone know if there has ever been another movie, before or since, that broke so many narrative rules on so many absurd levels? (eg. constantly breaking the forth wall, observing his own life as a third party, the Marshall McLuhan scene, becoming a cartoon charachter, the subtitled thoughts, etc).

                              I don't even think he did it again himself. So brilliant.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                                Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
                                I'll give you one. Great scripts reveal basic human truths. For example, there's a scene in Shawshank Redemption where Red goes before the parole board for like the 20th time in 20 years and finally has had enough ass kissing. He says (in one of the great scenes ever):

                                "There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullsh1t word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a sh1t."

                                When the guy on the parole board stamps the form 'approved' it's not some plot contrivance, and it's not even the result that Red intended. But it's true to human nature. It shows that once you take away the thing that someone is holding over you (in this case, his hope) they are powerless. That's where wisdom comes from, if you're smart enough to recognize it.

                                So if you're writing a script, show me something about people that I don't know, or haven't seen before.

                                Or, go back to talking about how great Star Wars is. Makes no difference to me.
                                I love Annie Hall, and I love Star Wars, and the Shawshank Redemption. I think they all did the above, showed the audience something about people that they didn't know, or hadn't seen before. Good litmus test for a great movie. I will now try and apply this to my latest in progress.
                                sigpic http://blip.fm/Peasblossom

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