Trim Down That Spec

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  • #16
    Re: Trim Down That Spec

    Originally posted by ComicBent View Post
    Rarely if ever have I read a wannabe writer's script that was so good that I did not want it to come to an end.
    I’ve read three scripts by one screenwriter whose scripts were so well written that I didn’t want the stories to end, and as I read them, the images played in my mind’s eye as easily as if I was watching a movie. In fact, I still can recall images of scenes she created that I only read. First encountered one of her scripts on Amazon Studios. Great writer, and won a studio 2-step blind deal, then was repped by a reputable agency. It makes me realize how difficult it is to “break into the business” if she hasn’t received a film credit yet. By now, she may have received one.
    “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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    • #17
      Re: Trim Down That Spec

      Some good stuff here -- thanks Joe, Tiger, SC TRIPLE ONE and ComicBent.

      Again, I personal love to cut down stuff. It does suck though every time when you know you're losing a good movie beat -- but then you think well the director will probably want this beat later -- it is sometimes a no win scenario.

      But you get to take it as a challenge. How do I keep the 10 essential things I need and lose jokes I love, scenes I love, etc. And think if this sells and I'm on set one day, I can tell them the funny joke they made me cut out.

      A thing I also do myself is can I lose a character? Can I combine 4 friends into 3? As I said to my rep -- I know this is a 2 handier -- but to save pages we can cut the main character. 50 pages gone! Instantly!

      Also you can also combine scenes. Like can you take that scene at the coffee shop and that breakup scene at school and combine them into the same scene? You can.

      Sometimes I just think let me cut pages 65-85 (without even looking) and it will probably work fine.

      But I do believe from reading specs -- most of the ones I enjoyed did not go over 120 pages. Most of the ones I really enjoyed were much closer to 100 pages than not.

      The 40 Year Old Virgin spec I have is 110 pages long. The movie is well over 2 hours like most Apatow stuff. But he knew for his first movie for what started his Apatow comedy takeover brand -- he made sure it was 110 pages on paper. But when they shot it, it got longer. They obviously added some jokes and fun.

      So to me, we do have to remember, we are selling a blueprint for a movie and it goes through so many changes if it's lucky enough to become an actual feature film. So unlike a novel or a play -- be willing to cut off the foot to save the body. Because this written document is not intended to be seen by the public in a final product like a book.

      So I know that's hard for us to take in-- that our genius on the page is designed not to be read but performed in a talky picture.

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      • #18
        Re: Trim Down That Spec

        Originally posted by Bono View Post

        we are selling a blueprint for a movie and it goes through so many changes if it's lucky enough to become an actual feature film. So unlike a novel or a play -- be willing to cut off the foot to save the body. Because this written document is not intended to be seen by the public in a final product like a book.
        I get the "cutting off the foot to save the body" idea, but it what context?

        If it's to make a bad, or even a good script great, okay, I get it, but if it's just to satisfy a reader's expectations, then I believe cutting off the foot is an unnecessary drastic measure.

        I once heard a member say to another member: "you're a good writer. Any scene in there is good. It's not like you're going to find a BAD scene to cut. Get used to cutting good scenes. They're the only ones you have left."

        If you got a 140 page epic, or whatever genre, that works, don't cut the heart out of it just to appease a reader's expectations.

        Now, once you sell it and go into development and they want you to cut, that's a different story, but the cuts will be reflected by what corresponds to the director, producer, studio's wants and needs. Their vision of the final product.

        I hear posters say trim, trim , trim to get it 110 pages. Or, I never seen a script that couldn't use some elements cut, i.e., scenes, characters, subplots, etc.

        I'd like to throw a hypothetical out there:

        Let's say we have an experienced writer who has gone through the necessary trims, cuts, etc. and he went through a thorough feedback and rewrite process, where in the end, in his gut he feels his 138 page screenplay works. His feedback tells him it works and it's a fast read.

        Would you, any member, advise him/her, no buddy, ya got to get that sucker down to at least 120 pages, no matter if you have to cut some good scenes, before you send it out into the marketplace?

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        • #19
          Re: Trim Down That Spec

          To answer last question -- no I'd advise them to get that sucker down to 110 pages. 120 is also too long. 138 is death for your chances even if it's great and everyone you know agrees. Even the rep might agree. But he's not in charge of the buying.

          The reality is your rep won't take out that 138 page script to market even if they love it because they know it won't sell at that length -- and it will piss off everyone they send it too if they did. If you have a rep that agrees to send it out at that length -- probably not a great rep as it's their job to know this is a huge red flag and problem area for a new writer trying to make a splash.

          Basically they aren't going to believe in one script so much that they're going to jeopardize their name/reputation. And more than that they know it's not going to help you sell it. They would rather take out some good scenes and get page count to 110 -- give you and script a chance to sell.

          So yes, if you don't cut off your foot, you'll die. We all like our foot, but you would do that if that was the choices given. Same with this.

          You can query reps and send them a 150 page draft of your script. But you aren't going to here back from them again. Some contests won't even accept scripts over 120 pages.

          It's about many things. Time to read it. The longer it is, the more money it will cost to make. It goes on and on. Including the fact that most specs (from good and bad writers) aren't good enough to sell. A spec already 30 pages over length that most sell it, makes the chances even lower. That's 30 more pages of problems a reader can find with your script. That extra stuff you love, might be killing the rest of your story. The main thruline may not be clear. The more you have -- the more chances you can take a wrong turn. Stay on the shorter path. The 110 page path.

          I'm not an expert in selling as that's not my job, but I've had reps and had specs go out. So I'm speaking from experience. From what my current rep says. To what my old reps said. To what pro writer friends say.

          Maybe someone wants to go through the spec sales list and find the page count. Or black list scripts.

          We should probably be happy there is a known page limit that most people follow as it gives us a limit and a creative challenge. If scripts could be 30 pages or 300 pages we'd have some bad structured scripts.

          And I believe, you believe, your 138 page script is perfect as is. But that's not how the reader who doesn't know you, never heard of you and has 20 other scripts to consider -- thinks.

          Would you as a reader be more excited to read a thinner or thicker script?

          Anyway -- it doesn't matter what us the writers think should be. Reality is what it is. Not really an opinion problem, you know? If we want to write something any length, we can write a book. If we want to write a spec script in hopes to sell it -- aim for 110 pages.

          Let me try it this way:

          If you love stand up comedy -- a 90 min set is perfect if the guy or girl is at the top of their game. But even I don't want to watch Chris Rock for 2 hours. Leave them wanting more. End your set ten minutes too early.
          Last edited by Bono; 05-29-2020, 08:40 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: Trim Down That Spec

            Just out of curiosity, what's the page count range for TV pilots?

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            • #21
              Re: Trim Down That Spec

              TV -- https://screencraft.org/2018/01/05/t...ision-scripts/

              https://screencraft.org/2016/06/21/d...pilot-scripts/ (this one has actual scripts to read and that's much easier to see it)

              In general:

              TV sitcom single camera -- 30 pages

              TV sitcom 3 camera -- 60 pages double spaced style

              TV Drama -- 60 pages

              All these above vary for many factors. Read those links. Google more.

              But with cable and streaming I think you'll find all numbers at some point.So much TV and options -- it's confusing.

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              • #22
                Re: Trim Down That Spec

                Originally posted by Bono View Post
                -- be willing to cut off the foot to save the body.
                You’d like this guy, then.
                “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Trim Down That Spec

                  https://johnaugust.com/2003/how-many-pages

                  This is 17 years old to show you it's been this way for awhile.

                  https://www.vulture.com/2017/10/7-ho...-a-script.html

                  Glanced quick saw 2 people say over 120 pages and cringe. RE: 138 page draft of something.

                  https://scriptmag.com/columns/meet-t...th-does-matter

                  Seems solid read.

                  Main thing I saw -- The issue is the long-standing industry “rule” that a spec script should never be more than 120 pages in length (which should probably be amended to 110 pages, since that is the length preferred by most execs these days)

                  But just make sure that you aren’t fooling yourself, because – as I have stated many, many times before – in all of the years that I have been reading and analyzing specs, I have only once come across one that ran longer than 120 pages and deserved to. The rest were structurally deficient or contained ten or fifteen or thirty pages that could have (and should have) been removed.

                  This seems great read -- https://www.indiewire.com/2019/01/sc...ay-1202039563/ Joe will like this -- he also demonstrated that rules about page length had been way over blown, as scripts ranging between 90 and 130 pages had largely uniform score results. Only at the page length extremes, less than 90 pages and over 130, did scores start to go down [See Chart Above]. However if you actually look at the chart the 5 columns with highest scores are scripts with page counts in range of 95 to 119. It goes down the higher page counts. Be interested to see 65 page thing to see what else is in there.

                  Full Report is very detailed... button wasn't working but i pasted this into my URL -- https://stephenfollows.com/wp-conten...nFollows_c.pdf 106 Pages median length across all scripts. 68.5% were 90 to 120 pages long. They break down use of swear words in specs. This is amazing.
                  Last edited by Bono; 05-29-2020, 09:45 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Trim Down That Spec

                    We're assuming these scripts are written like a Gillian Flynn or Shane Black - easy to read language that is easy to follow and flies by in just a few hours. Some 100 page scripts feel like 150 page scripts. Billy Wilder scripts are long, but feel like a breeze to read.

                    Those tv page counts referenced above sounds about right. I have seen a wide fluctuation, though, so I guess if you reach a certain status, you can kind of get away with a longer page count.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Trim Down That Spec

                      110 is probably the new 120. Maybe even 105. I remember a reader once telling me that things have changed in the last few years and it's moving towards shorter and shorter scripts. Her point was trim, trim, trim.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Trim Down That Spec

                        Exactly. Just think how many short videos we click on and can't even finish. I used to listen to albums of musicians I loved, now I listen to 1 song.

                        Of course if I love something, I'll put in the time. But for something new -- oh crap -- please make it as short as can be.

                        And yes great writing can suck you in, make you forget about page length. But for most of us -- even if we write very well -- the readers and reps and powers that be -- read good/great scripts all the time. It's their job. So they aren't going to be blown away easily -- unless you're at some crazy Sorkin or Shane Black level or Quentin on the page.

                        Most working writers -- are very talented. But can they get away with 130 pages scripts? Probably not. And they wouldn't want to anyway.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Trim Down That Spec

                          That's why those Geico commercials are so genius. Usually you have an option to skip the commercial after 5 seconds, but Geico usually has a premise that forces you to sit through the entire thing...and they have the hook in the first few seconds.

                          I think most people just do not like to read.... because that extra 20 pages could mean them hanging out with their partner or going out to dinner. But, they also feel like something is wrong when they find a character not fully developed or a setup not fully paid off....hence, then they throw in a bunch of notes that we all know will pad an extra 15-20 pages. That leaves the writer with a bit of a dilemma. Sometimes it takes an elite level of skill to craft a story that hits all the right beats, yet is told concisely. It takes years to master. Even if you're Billy Wilder and you turn in a 130 page script, the reader hates you automatically....you just made them miss the opera they had planned that night or cuddle time with their partner.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Trim Down That Spec

                            Originally posted by Friday View Post
                            I think most people just do not like to read.... because that extra 20 pages could mean them hanging out with their partner or going out to dinner. Even if you're Billy Wilder and you turn in a 130 page script, the reader hates you automatically....you just made them miss the opera they had planned that night or cuddle time with their partner.
                            So the script readers, who are paid to read scripts, do not like to read (any more than they have to read them-I get that part, but still...). I mentioned this glancingly to a DDPro friend I made tonight by PM. The "kids today- don't want to read, they want to see a pitch deck or a rip-o-matic or a sizzle reel. It has me thinking that the Lascaux Cave cave-art people might have been script readers just before the last Great Apocalypse the human race collectively doesn't recall because everything devolved to images. Hey...
                            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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                            • #29
                              Re: Trim Down That Spec

                              Originally posted by Bono View Post

                              Main thing I saw -- The issue is the long-standing industry “rule” that a spec script should never be more than 120 pages in length (which should probably be amended to 110 pages, since that is the length preferred by most execs these days)
                              I don't know what you're referring to with "Main thing I saw" and I noticed that quotes was used for "rule," but I want to make a strong point anyway that the industry standard of 90 to 120 pages is not a rule, it's a guideline.

                              Screenplays under and over this range have obtained representation for its writers and have sold.

                              But yes, if there is anyway possible for a writer to tell his story within this range, without hurting character and story, then do so.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Trim Down That Spec

                                I'm struggling with my first screenplay project so this thread comes at a good time for me. A couple of random thoughts came to mind.

                                Trim down...

                                I'm a novelist by nature and I thought that I could take a novel like Michaelangelo with a block of marble and chip away until I had a the bones of a screenplay. But after studying screenplays and actually trying to put ink on the page, I found it to be the opposite. In finding my voice, I have to retell the entire story from the ground up in a dialect of Tarzan-speak, then add just enough to capture the mind's eye of the reader.

                                Tarzan could say all he needed to say in 3-4 word sentences with no definite articles, few modifiers and simple gestures.

                                Jane go river.
                                becomes
                                Jane goes to the river still thinking about Tarzan.

                                My inner novelist wants to add some kind of descriptions, even toxic adverbs, "wistfully" or "angrily" But, the reader has to already know that from context, dialog or relevant setting.

                                Like any foreign language, the more scripts I read, the more fluent I become in the screenwriting Tarzan-speak.

                                Page count...

                                I'm shooting for the 110 page count despite any artistic compromises. Even if I manage to write a really great screenplay, when I hit the streets with it as an unknown newbie with a first project, I need to stack as many cards in my favor as I can.

                                I'm also preparing for the fact that by the time I finally have a viable product, the standard page count will have dropped to 105 and I'll need to cut 5 pages.

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