Montage or quick shots?

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  • #16
    Re: Montage or quick shots?

    Seems unnecessarily complicated. If the writer wants to use a piece of dialogue in a montage - even if most of the other beats don't use it - I don't think there's any reason to do gymnastics. No one will be confused.

    (Especially since it wouldn't be that easy in a scripted piece. How would you handle it?

    A MONTAGE showing Henry's attempts to date, INTERCUT with scenes where we hear him talking to his date.

    Not sure how that helps.)

    But the real problem isn't the semantics. The problem is when some new writer is writing a montage, gets the advice not to use dialogue in it, and so writes a version they like less told only with visuals.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Montage or quick shots?

      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
      Seems unnecessarily complicated. If the writer wants to use a piece of dialogue in a montage - even if most of the other beats don't use it - I don't think there's any reason to do gymnastics. No one will be confused.

      (Especially since it wouldn't be that easy in a scripted piece. How would you handle it?

      A MONTAGE showing Henry's attempts to date, INTERCUT with scenes where we hear him talking to his date.

      Not sure how that helps.)

      But the real problem isn't the semantics. The problem is when some new writer is writing a montage, gets the advice not to use dialogue in it, and so writes a version they like less told only with visuals.
      These terms have meanings and history. This is like sending a friend to a Harley Davidson dealer to buy a motorcycle without an engine that you can peddle.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Montage or quick shots?

        Originally posted by altoption View Post
        These terms have meanings and history. This is like sending a friend to a Harley Davidson dealer to buy a motorcycle without an engine that you can peddle.
        I literally have no idea what that means.

        I agree that the word "montage" has a meaning and a history. I disagree with what that meaning currently is. Unless you can produce some definitive source that industry people all use and respect (hint: no such thing exists), then the word takes its meaning from current usage.

        Here's how I used a montage in a script of mine. How would you format it?

        Code:
           MONTAGE:
        
           INT. HENRY'S APARTMENT - DAY
        
           Henry walks through his apartment, eating fast food with one
           hand as he sorts through the mail with the other.  Kate sits
           on the couch, watching.
        
           INT. CHURCH - DAY
        
           Ashley sits in the back row as Father Marks delivers his
           sermon.
        
           INT. EXAMINING ROOM - DAY
        
           Henry struggles to hoist the huge fat lab (from earlier in
           the movie) onto the table.  Kate stands in the corner.
        
           INT. ASHLEY'S APARTMENT - DAY
        
           Ashley's in her kitchen, pots going everywhere.  She calls
           for something - the refrigerator door closes, revealing
           Ashley's new partner, a woman.
        
           EXT. STREET - DAY
        
           Henry opens the passenger door of his car and holds his hand
           to help his passenger out.  It's a woman in her 30's, SUE. 
           They begin to walk down the street.
        
                               SUE
                     You're a vet.  I've always wondered -
                     which is smarter, cats or dogs?
        
                               HENRY
                     Well, cats are better with tools, but
                     dogs are great spellers.
        
           Sue gives him a blank look.
        
                               HENRY (CONT'D)
                     That's a joke.  Actually, it's dogs.
        
                               SUE
                     Something wrong with cats?
        
                               HENRY
                     Cats are great.  It's their owners
                     that are nuts.
        
           After an uncomfortable pause:
        
                               HENRY (CONT'D)
                     How many cats do you have?
        
                               SUE
                     Four.
        
           Henry looks at Sue.  She's not making a face that says "we're
           going to have a fun date."
        
                               HENRY
                     Should we bother going to the
                     restaurant, or do you want me to just
                     take you home?
        
           Sue turns around and starts walking back to the car.  That
           answers that.  Henry sighs and follows her.
        
           They pass Kate, watching from a doorway.
        
           INT. HALLWAY OUTSIDE ASHLEY'S APARTMENT - NIGHT
        
           Ashley has one hand on her door as she says goodbye to a
           slick looking guy in his 30's, BRIAN.
        
                               ASHLEY
                     I had fun.
        
                               BRIAN
                     I told you you would.
        
           Ashley forces a polite laugh.
        
                               ASHLEY
                     All right...  good night, then.
        
                               BRIAN
                         (high voice, pretending he's
                          Ashley)
                     Come in for some coffee?
                         (normal voice)
                     Why, I really have to get up early,
                     but if you insist, maybe one cup.
        
                               ASHLEY
                     Ha ha ha...  That's a great trick. 
                     Okay, I'll call you.
        
           She opens the door as Brian comes in for a kiss - she ducks
           under it and disappears inside.  
        
           Brian walks down the hall - he passes a woman.  He doesn't
           seem to see her - it's because it's Kate.  
        
           INT. HENRY'S APARTMENT - DAY
        
           Henry sits on his couch, reading "Infinite Jest" with the
           curtains drawn.  Kate is sitting across the room from him,
           watching him sadly.
        
           INT. ASHLEY'S BEDROOM - DAY
        
           Ashley is asleep in bed, TV on, food sitting next to her. 
           Kate stands in the room, watching her sleep.
        
           END MONTAGE

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Montage or quick shots?

          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
          I literally have no idea what that means.

          I agree that the word "montage" has a meaning and a history. I disagree with what that meaning currently is. Unless you can produce some definitive source that industry people all use and respect (hint: no such thing exists), then the word takes its meaning from current usage.

          Here's how I used a montage in a script of mine. How would you format it?

          Code:
             MONTAGE:
          
             INT. HENRY'S APARTMENT - DAY
          
             Henry walks through his apartment, eating fast food with one
             hand as he sorts through the mail with the other.  Kate sits
             on the couch, watching.
          
             INT. CHURCH - DAY
          
             Ashley sits in the back row as Father Marks delivers his
             sermon.
          
             INT. EXAMINING ROOM - DAY
          
             Henry struggles to hoist the huge fat lab (from earlier in
             the movie) onto the table.  Kate stands in the corner.
          
             INT. ASHLEY'S APARTMENT - DAY
          
             Ashley's in her kitchen, pots going everywhere.  She calls
             for something - the refrigerator door closes, revealing
             Ashley's new partner, a woman.
          
             EXT. STREET - DAY
          
             Henry opens the passenger door of his car and holds his hand
             to help his passenger out.  It's a woman in her 30's, SUE. 
             They begin to walk down the street.
          
                                 SUE
                       You're a vet.  I've always wondered -
                       which is smarter, cats or dogs?
          
                                 HENRY
                       Well, cats are better with tools, but
                       dogs are great spellers.
          
             Sue gives him a blank look.
          
                                 HENRY (CONT'D)
                       That's a joke.  Actually, it's dogs.
          
                                 SUE
                       Something wrong with cats?
          
                                 HENRY
                       Cats are great.  It's their owners
                       that are nuts.
          
             After an uncomfortable pause:
          
                                 HENRY (CONT'D)
                       How many cats do you have?
          
                                 SUE
                       Four.
          
             Henry looks at Sue.  She's not making a face that says "we're
             going to have a fun date."
          
                                 HENRY
                       Should we bother going to the
                       restaurant, or do you want me to just
                       take you home?
          
             Sue turns around and starts walking back to the car.  That
             answers that.  Henry sighs and follows her.
          
             They pass Kate, watching from a doorway.
          
             INT. HALLWAY OUTSIDE ASHLEY'S APARTMENT - NIGHT
          
             Ashley has one hand on her door as she says goodbye to a
             slick looking guy in his 30's, BRIAN.
          
                                 ASHLEY
                       I had fun.
          
                                 BRIAN
                       I told you you would.
          
             Ashley forces a polite laugh.
          
                                 ASHLEY
                       All right...  good night, then.
          
                                 BRIAN
                           (high voice, pretending he's
                            Ashley)
                       Come in for some coffee?
                           (normal voice)
                       Why, I really have to get up early,
                       but if you insist, maybe one cup.
          
                                 ASHLEY
                       Ha ha ha...  That's a great trick. 
                       Okay, I'll call you.
          
             She opens the door as Brian comes in for a kiss - she ducks
             under it and disappears inside.  
          
             Brian walks down the hall - he passes a woman.  He doesn't
             seem to see her - it's because it's Kate.  
          
             INT. HENRY'S APARTMENT - DAY
          
             Henry sits on his couch, reading "Infinite Jest" with the
             curtains drawn.  Kate is sitting across the room from him,
             watching him sadly.
          
             INT. ASHLEY'S BEDROOM - DAY
          
             Ashley is asleep in bed, TV on, food sitting next to her. 
             Kate stands in the room, watching her sleep.
          
             END MONTAGE
          I'd drop the MONTAGE and END MONTAGE. This reads better without them, as an ordinary series of scenes. As written, I'm confused when you hit the first scene with dialogue, and I assume we're out of the montage. Then, I'm pulled out of the read again at the end when I hit END MONTAGE.

          You'd more commonly use montage to avoid writing all the separate slug lines. And cue the reader on the sequence. From Citizen Kane to Adaptation, that's the more typical usage.

          Actually, I'm not really sure why you're choosing to label this as a montage. Maybe, I'm missing something.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Montage or quick shots?

            Well, I labeled it as a montage because it's a montage. I wanted to move through a story point in the script quickly, using short scenes that don't have the normal beginning, middle and end. I'm compressing time and moving through different locations. I.E., a montage.

            I wanted it to play as a montage in the finished movie. I expected that music would play over it, tying it together, as happens with a lot of montages. In the movie, a song comes up under the first scene, dips down so we can hear the dialogue when we have to, then swells back up at the end. The song ends when the montage is over.

            Because I labeled it as such, when the editor was given the footage for this part of the movie, he assembled it as a montage, putting the music cues in the right place. So he didn't seem confused by it.

            Originally posted by altoption View Post
            I'd drop the MONTAGE and END MONTAGE. This reads better without them, as an ordinary series of scenes. As written, I'm confused when you hit the first scene with dialogue, and I assume we're out of the montage. Then, I'm pulled out of the read again at the end when I hit END MONTAGE.
            It would throw me out of it more having four little mini-scenes that were basically shots. "MONTAGE" keys me into what's happening. And I knew it was over when it said "END MONTAGE." The script sold twice and got produced, and never once did one person seem confused or ask me to change it.

            (And again, the editor understood completely and edited it correctly without further guidance.)

            You'd more commonly use montage to avoid writing all the separate slug lines. And cue the reader on the sequence. From Citizen Kane to Adaptation, that's the more typical usage.
            But a lot of montages move to separate locations and times of day. I'm not aware of a better shorthand to show locations and times of day than sluglines.

            John August is one of my favorite writers. Here's a montage of his from Big Fish:

            We move into a MONTAGE:

            INT. BIG TOP CENTER RING - NIGHT

            CLOSE ON Edward, smiling nervously. His head is tilted to the side, and as we PULL BACK, we see why: he's holding it in a MASSIVE LION's open mouth. The beast's sharp teeth are just poking his skin. If the lion so much as flinches, Edward is dead.

            The CROWD applauds, which makes the lion antsy. Which makes Edward antsier.

            EDWARD (V.O.)
            From that moment on, I did everything
            Mr. Calloway asked, and a lot of things he didn't. I'd go three days without stopping to eat, and four days without sleeping.

            EXT. THE HYDRA - DAY
            His eyes droopy from lack of sleep, Edward mans the whirling amusement park ride.

            EDWARD (V.O.)
            The only thing that kept me going was
            the promise of meeting the girl who would be my wife.

            Nodding off, Edward falls backward, into the path of the spinning arms. One of the Hydra cars hits him square in the gut, throwing him up and away, sailing 200 feet through the air.

            EXT. FIELD - DAY
            Edward chases a costumed pig, tripping over tent cords, falling in the mud.

            His hunt leads him through the back of a tent, where he's unwittingly stepped in front of a line of motorized birds. To the left, CUSTOMERS are shooting with rifles. He dodges four SHOTS that knock down the birds around him.

            He catches his breath, lucky.

            Then a half-blind OLD WOMAN pulls her trigger, hitting him in the shoulder.

            INT. STABLES - DAY

            Edward shovels **** in the nastiest stables you've ever seen. But all he can think about is...

            EDWARD (to himself)
            Daffodils!

            The wonder of it. He goes back to shoveling, a smile on his face.

            EDWARD (V.O.)(cont'd)
            True to his word, every month Amos
            would tell me something new about the woman of my dreams.
            Sluglines, voice over, dialogue within the scenes... Looks good to me.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Montage or quick shots?

              I recall reading MONTAGES with dialogue in writer/director scripts like PINEAPPLE EXPRESS and THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY. They turned out pretty well and fit my definition on what I believe montages to be.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                Originally posted by Why One View Post
                I recall reading MONTAGES with dialogue in writer/director scripts like PINEAPPLE EXPRESS and THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY. They turned out pretty well and fit my definition on what I believe montages to be.
                Dialogue or voiced over narration?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Montage or quick shots?

                  Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                  Seems unnecessarily complicated. If the writer wants to use a piece of dialogue in a montage - even if most of the other beats don't use it - I don't think there's any reason to do gymnastics. No one will be confused.

                  (Especially since it wouldn't be that easy in a scripted piece. How would you handle it?

                  A MONTAGE showing Henry's attempts to date, INTERCUT with scenes where we hear him talking to his date.

                  Not sure how that helps.)

                  But the real problem isn't the semantics. The problem is when some new writer is writing a montage, gets the advice not to use dialogue in it, and so writes a version they like less told only with visuals.
                  Since movies are a visual medium, that'd probably be a good thing (!)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Montage or quick shots?

                    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                    Because it's traditional? IMO, it's a bad reason not to do something that might be helpful. I haven't seen it in a few years, but I seem to remember a speed dating montage in 40 Year Old Virgin that's almost all dialogue, with a few visual jokes tossed in.
                    Yes, traditional. The odds are against "something that might be helpful," which is why the tradition exists. There can be exceptions, even to traditions, but they are generally uncommon, as is your example.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Montage or quick shots?

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                      ... How would you format it?

                      Code:
                         MONTAGE:
                      
                         INT. HENRY'S APARTMENT - DAY
                      
                         Henry walks through his apartment, eating fast food with one
                         hand as he sorts through the mail with the other.  Kate sits
                         on the couch, watching.
                      
                         INT. CHURCH - DAY
                      
                         Ashley sits in the back row as Father Marks delivers his
                         sermon.
                      
                         INT. EXAMINING ROOM - DAY
                      
                         Henry struggles to hoist the huge fat lab (from earlier in
                         the movie) onto the table.  Kate stands in the corner.
                      
                         INT. ASHLEY'S APARTMENT - DAY
                      
                         Ashley's in her kitchen, pots going everywhere.  She calls
                         for something - the refrigerator door closes, revealing
                         Ashley's new partner, a woman.
                      
                         EXT. STREET - DAY
                      
                         Henry opens the passenger door of his car and holds his hand
                         to help his passenger out.  It's a woman in her 30's, SUE. 
                         They begin to walk down the street.
                      
                                             SUE
                                   You're a vet.  I've always wondered -
                                   which is smarter, cats or dogs?
                      
                                             HENRY
                                   Well, cats are better with tools, but
                                   dogs are great spellers.
                      
                         Sue gives him a blank look.
                      
                                             HENRY (CONT'D)
                                   That's a joke.  Actually, it's dogs.
                      
                                             SUE
                                   Something wrong with cats?
                      
                                             HENRY
                                   Cats are great.  It's their owners
                                   that are nuts.
                      
                         After an uncomfortable pause:
                      
                                             HENRY (CONT'D)
                                   How many cats do you have?
                      
                                             SUE
                                   Four.
                      
                         Henry looks at Sue.  She's not making a face that says "we're
                         going to have a fun date."
                      
                                             HENRY
                                   Should we bother going to the
                                   restaurant, or do you want me to just
                                   take you home?
                      
                         Sue turns around and starts walking back to the car.  That
                         answers that.  Henry sighs and follows her.
                      
                         They pass Kate, watching from a doorway.
                      
                         INT. HALLWAY OUTSIDE ASHLEY'S APARTMENT - NIGHT
                      
                         Ashley has one hand on her door as she says goodbye to a
                         slick looking guy in his 30's, BRIAN.
                      
                                             ASHLEY
                                   I had fun.
                      
                                             BRIAN
                                   I told you you would.
                      
                         Ashley forces a polite laugh.
                      
                                             ASHLEY
                                   All right...  good night, then.
                      
                                             BRIAN
                                       (high voice, pretending he's
                                        Ashley)
                                   Come in for some coffee?
                                       (normal voice)
                                   Why, I really have to get up early,
                                   but if you insist, maybe one cup.
                      
                                             ASHLEY
                                   Ha ha ha...  That's a great trick. 
                                   Okay, I'll call you.
                      
                         She opens the door as Brian comes in for a kiss - she ducks
                         under it and disappears inside.  
                      
                         Brian walks down the hall - he passes a woman.  He doesn't
                         seem to see her - it's because it's Kate.  
                      
                         INT. HENRY'S APARTMENT - DAY
                      
                         Henry sits on his couch, reading "Infinite Jest" with the
                         curtains drawn.  Kate is sitting across the room from him,
                         watching him sadly.
                      
                         INT. ASHLEY'S BEDROOM - DAY
                      
                         Ashley is asleep in bed, TV on, food sitting next to her. 
                         Kate stands in the room, watching her sleep.
                      
                         END MONTAGE
                      I have no problem with the MONTAGE. It conforms to the current Hollywood usage.
                      I have no problem with the Scene Headings.

                      It is a confusing Montage though.
                      - What does the Examining Room scene have to do with the "message" of the Montage?
                      - The Street and Hallway Scenes could have been as effective without the dialogue (with minor changes). Keep the music going.
                      - Why Ashley? Isn't this just about Kate's and Henry's relationship?

                      Food for thought:
                      - In movies, characters only talk when they want something (not unlike the Street and Hallway scenes)
                      - which allows for the possibility of opposition
                      - and conflict
                      - and conflict resolution
                      - which contributes to a complete scene with a beginning, middle & end.
                      "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                      - Clive Barker, Galilee

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Montage or quick shots?

                        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

                        John August is one of my favorite writers.
                        Here's what John has to say about montages on his blog:

                        When a montage moves between multiple locations, the situation gets a little more difficult. Often the best choice is to not even say "MONTAGE- and just let it be a series of short scenes - just a slugline and a sentence or two of description. The reader will correctly intuit that there's a montage occurring.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Montage or quick shots?

                          Thanks for the advice on how to write montages and notes on my writing, Fade In, Two Brad and Altoption. It should help me when I tackle the rewrite.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Montage or quick shots?

                            Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                            Thanks for the advice on how to write montages and notes on my writing, Fade In, Two Brad and Altoption. It should help me when I tackle the rewrite.
                            Perhaps there is someone else on this board who is in the middle of a rewrite that could learn something.

                            This goes to what has been bothering me with threads of late.

                            Why strive, or settle, for "acceptable"?

                            Why not strive for greatest and best?

                            I hope that I'm giving advice that may be even beyond my ability to achieve.
                            "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                            - Clive Barker, Galilee

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Montage or quick shots?

                              Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                              Perhaps there is someone else on this board who is in the middle of a rewrite that could learn something.

                              This goes to what has been bothering me with threads of late.

                              Why strive, or settle, for "acceptable"?

                              Why not strive for greatest and best?

                              I hope that I'm giving advice that may be even beyond my ability to achieve.
                              God forbid that someone should follow in Jeff's footsteps...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                                For Jeff Lowell's, I often use something like this.


                                Michael Jackson's "BEAT IT" plays over...

                                SHOT 1

                                SHOT 2

                                SHOT 3

                                SHOT 4

                                ...as the song draws to a close.

                                Comment

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