Montage or quick shots?

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  • #31
    Re: Montage or quick shots?

    What was the reasoning for taking Kate out of most of those shots?
    "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
    - Clive Barker, Galilee

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Montage or quick shots?

      Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
      Perhaps there is someone else on this board who is in the middle of a rewrite that could learn something.
      Absolutely! I think that giving me story notes on an out of context montage where you don't know what happens before or after it could be helpful to a lot of people. That's why I thanked you.

      This goes to what has been bothering me with threads of late.

      Why strive, or settle, for "acceptable"?

      Why not strive for greatest and best?
      At the risk of insulting your intelligence, the word "acceptable" has two meanings. You might be confusing them.

      I hope that I'm giving advice that may be even beyond my ability to achieve.
      I think that's a safe bet.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Montage or quick shots?

        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
        Thanks for the advice on how to write montages and notes on my writing, Fade In, Two Brad and Altoption. It should help me when I tackle the rewrite.
        Jeff,

        You asked me how I'd handle your example. I told you. I'm a fan of your writing. I respect what you've accomplished as a pro. I'm glad you're on this board.

        We simply disagree about the best way to format a montage. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.

        And PM if you'd like notes on that rewrite.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Montage or quick shots?

          Altoption-

          Appreciated.

          And - no snark at all - this conversation has been helpful to me. I've realized that I'm starting to bore myself. And I'm sure I can't be the only person I'm boring.

          There's a group of people on this board that have a differing viewpoint about how to approach the most basic elements of screenwriting. The frustrating part is that almost no conversation can get past that level. It's as if any conversation that takes place has to stop to define what the word "is" means. And no one can agree so we can move on, even if you pull out the dictionary and read the definition. So we argue about what "is" is for 20 pages, and never get into anything more interesting.

          The maddening part - to me - is that one side of the debate is populated by professional writers and readers who work in Hollywood, and the other side is remembering rules they heard from someone somewhere. (Of course, I'm sure it's viewed differently on the other side.)

          So, I'm going to cede the floor for awhile. It feels like my viewpoint is well represented in the archives. I'm sure I'll need to procrastinate again at some point and check back in.

          Until then, break a leg, all.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Montage or quick shots?

            don't go, or at least lurk as time permits. many here value your input
            life happens
            despite a few cracked pots-
            and random sunlight

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Montage or quick shots?

              I'll stop asking you questions when I no longer value your input.
              "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
              - Clive Barker, Galilee

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                I have no problem with the MONTAGE. It conforms to the current Hollywood usage.
                I have no problem with the Scene Headings.

                It is a confusing Montage though.
                - What does the Examining Room scene have to do with the "message" of the Montage?
                - The Street and Hallway Scenes could have been as effective without the dialogue (with minor changes). Keep the music going.
                - Why Ashley? Isn't this just about Kate's and Henry's relationship?

                Food for thought:
                - In movies, characters only talk when they want something (not unlike the Street and Hallway scenes)
                - which allows for the possibility of opposition
                - and conflict
                - and conflict resolution
                - which contributes to a complete scene with a beginning, middle & end.

                Do you realize this is a montage from a film Jeff wrote and directed?

                Even if you didn't, even if you didn't know Kate is a ghost, his technique in the montage has a clear purpose, even as an excerpt out of context.

                And this is why I personally skim your posts -- too often - in my opinion - your comments fall in the "can't see the forest for the trees" file.

                Instead of approaching every discussion as a contrarian -- and I say this with full knowledge that I can be a contrarian at times -- open your mind a little.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Montage or quick shots?

                  And this ...

                  Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                  I hope that I'm giving advice that may be even beyond my ability to achieve.
                  ... is questionable. Can one really give advice that's beyond their ability to achieve? I don't think so. At least not with any authority.
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Montage or quick shots?

                    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                    Do you realize this is a montage from a film Jeff wrote and directed?
                    Yes, I do. Who better to answer my questions?

                    Even if you didn't, even if you didn't know Kate is a ghost, his technique in the montage has a clear purpose, even as an excerpt out of context.
                    What might that purpose be? How is trying to pick up a dog a part of that purpose? How does repeating how Henry feels about cat owners a part of that purpose?

                    I think the purpose of the montage is for Kate to realize how miserable Henry is. I could be wrong.

                    Did you see the movie? I'm curious why Kate is not in many of those shots as written.

                    Please educate me. I try to be specific with my questions. I'm looking for answers, not reasons for not answering.
                    "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                    - Clive Barker, Galilee

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Montage or quick shots?

                      Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                      Yes, I do. Who better to answer my questions?


                      What might that purpose be? How is trying to pick up a dog a part of that purpose? How does repeating how Henry feels about cat owners a part of that purpose?

                      I think the purpose of the montage is for Kate to realize how miserable Henry is. I could be wrong.

                      Did you see the movie? I'm curious why Kate is not in many of those shots as written.

                      Please educate me. I try to be specific with my questions. I'm looking for answers, not reasons for not answering.
                      I don't buy it, 2Brad. I sense you're back-peddling. I suspect you did not read to the end of the montage. Once you see Kate in Ashley's bedroom -- it would have negated your previous list of "questions" (read: critiques).

                      At the very least, it would have given you pause and you would not have asked him "...Isn't this about Kate and Henry's relationship."

                      But in your zeal to school JL and everyone else, you gave him notes, you critiqued his choice of shots, without considering you may have MISREAD the material.

                      Bottom line -- there are two camps on this and other issues (i.e. BF slugs, mini-slugs, change in scene location, etc. etc.)

                      Camp 1 says: Always color within the lines. Do not take liberties with technique or mechanics. Ever. Only pros are allowed to break the rules. You're the head honcho in this camp. And a couple others who share your evangelical passion for "The Rules" (that don't seem to exist outside of screenwriting message boards).

                      Camp 2 says: If it serves your story, if it makes your script a more compelling read -- yes, color outside the lines. There are no rules.

                      Now - let's see who traditionally falls in Camp 2. All pros (not only on DD, every pro who has ever discussed screenwriting publically); on-the-precipice of pro (people who have reps, who have met with studios, gone wide, won fellowships), and aspiring screenwriters with more than three scripts under their belts.

                      You see a trend here? I do.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Montage or quick shots?

                        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                        I don't buy it, 2Brad. I sense you're back-peddling. I suspect you did not read to the end of the montage. Once you see Kate in Ashley's bedroom -- it would have negated your previous list of "questions" (read: critiques).

                        At the very least, it would have given you pause and you would not have asked him "...Isn't this about Kate and Henry's relationship."

                        But in your zeal to school JL and everyone else, you gave him notes, you critiqued his choice of shots, without considering you may have MISREAD the material.

                        Bottom line -- there are two camps on this and other issues (i.e. BF slugs, mini-slugs, change in scene location, etc. etc.)

                        Camp 1 says: Always color within the lines. Do not take liberties with technique or mechanics. Ever. Only pros are allowed to break the rules. You're the head honcho in this camp. And a couple others who share your evangelical passion for "The Rules" (that don't seem to exist outside of screenwriting message boards).

                        Camp 2 says: If it serves your story, if it makes your script a more compelling read -- yes, color outside the lines. There are no rules.

                        Now - let's see who traditionally falls in Camp 2. All pros (not only on DD, every pro who has ever discussed screenwriting publically); on-the-precipice of pro (people who have reps, who have met with studios, gone wide, won fellowships), and aspiring screenwriters with more than three scripts under their belts.

                        You see a trend here? I do.
                        I must be really dense because I'm not getting it.

                        Here's what I understand:
                        Why is trying to pick up a dog a part of the montage?
                        Answer: It serves the story and makes for a better read.

                        Why is repeating how Henry feels about cat owners a part of the montage?
                        Answer: It serves the story and makes for a better read.

                        It serves the story how?
                        It makes for a better read how?

                        I did read the entire example.
                        If you don't own the movie or can't wait for Netflix then check out YouTube, Over Her Dead Body - Part 8 (the last couple of minutes) and then the beginning of Part - 9. (then go buy the movie)
                        "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                        - Clive Barker, Galilee

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Montage or quick shots?

                          Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                          I must be really dense because I'm not getting it.

                          Here's what I understand:
                          Why is trying to pick up a dog a part of the montage?
                          Answer: It serves the story and makes for a better read.

                          Why is repeating how Henry feels about cat owners a part of the montage?
                          Answer: It serves the story and makes for a better read.

                          It serves the story how?
                          It makes for a better read how?

                          I did read the entire example.
                          If you don't own the movie or can't wait for Netflix then check out YouTube, Over Her Dead Body - Part 8 (the last couple of minutes) and then the beginning of Part - 9. (then go buy the movie)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Montage or quick shots?

                            Originally posted by asjah8
                            2b, i think this may be where you're getting confused...? foremost, the purpose of the montage is to compress time. then secondly, the writer chooses the context based on individual choices of what they want that time to represent as it passes.

                            i don't believe the writer chooses a montage first to represent, and then compress; but rather the other way around.
                            ...
                            I could see that. Too bad nobody said that earlier.

                            For discussion: Doesn't the entire movie (in a vast majority of the time) compress time - only without the music?
                            "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                            - Clive Barker, Galilee

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Montage or quick shots?

                              Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
                              RADAR
                              Ah, Bach.
                              "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                              - Clive Barker, Galilee

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                                Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                                Yes, I do. Who better to answer my questions?


                                What might that purpose be? How is trying to pick up a dog a part of that purpose? How does repeating how Henry feels about cat owners a part of that purpose?

                                I think the purpose of the montage is for Kate to realize how miserable Henry is. I could be wrong.

                                Did you see the movie? I'm curious why Kate is not in many of those shots as written.

                                Please educate me. I try to be specific with my questions. I'm looking for answers, not reasons for not answering.
                                this might answer your question...

                                SUE
                                You're a vet. I've always wondered -
                                which is smarter, cats or dogs?


                                HENRY
                                Cats are great. It's their owners
                                that are nuts.


                                Henry sits on his couch, reading "Infinite Jest" with the
                                curtains drawn. Kate is sitting across the room from him,
                                watching him sadly.


                                the central theme of the novel "infinite jest- is about escape from life.
                                life happens
                                despite a few cracked pots-
                                and random sunlight

                                Comment

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