Montage or quick shots?

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  • #46
    Re: Montage or quick shots?

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    Camp 1 says: Always color within the lines. Do not take liberties with technique or mechanics. Ever. Only pros are allowed to break the rules. You're the head honcho in this camp. And a couple others who share your evangelical passion for "The Rules" (that don't seem to exist outside of screenwriting message boards).

    Camp 2 says: If it serves your story, if it makes your script a more compelling read -- yes, color outside the lines. There are no rules.

    Now - let's see who traditionally falls in Camp 2. All pros (not only on DD, every pro who has ever discussed screenwriting publically); on-the-precipice of pro (people who have reps, who have met with studios, gone wide, won fellowships), and aspiring screenwriters with more than three scripts under their belts.

    You see a trend here? I do.
    Is there room for a third camp here? One that says it's worthwhile understanding the traditions and techniques used by screenwriters for the past hundred years. And that, even so, story is king.

    Personally, I question the value of telling a new writer that there are no rules. For example, in general, it's good to be mindful of writing in an active voice in a script, using strong action verbs. So a new writer hears this and then thinks that he needs to eliminate all passive writing. Clearly that's not the case, but it's really something you need to get a feel for. And it is something that is extremely helpful to become conscious of when you first start writing.

    Same with the dreaded "we see." I've seen newbie scripts where the use of "we see" is absolutely unnecessary. In general, we see everything you describe in a script. Yet, there are times when most writers will use a "we see." For example, in many openings we see something like this: "We're soaring over a desert landscape..."

    And about montages... Typically, montages do not include dialogue. Lots of times they are written without slug lines to conserve space. If you'd like to see how montages are traditionally formatted, check out Cole & Haag, or The New Hollywood Standard.

    And bolded slug lines... Not the standard for features. Some very successful TV writers and others have adopted them for feature scripts, but the vast majority of scripts are still written without them.

    One last thing, the argument that whatever a pro says is right, and whatever you find in a sold script is okay is just plain silly. I've seen John August misuse a common screenwriting term. Is that a knock against his writing? Of course not. John August's blog is absolutely invaluable. But it doesn't mean he's always correct. Just because Quentin Tarantino spells like he does in Inglourious Basterds, does that mean that it's okay to throw away your spellchecker? Don't be silly. Would I have preferred reading IB without all the horrendous spelling. Damn straight.
    Last edited by altoption; 09-30-2010, 08:40 AM. Reason: Changed "some" to "a" re: John August misuse

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Montage or quick shots?

      Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
      this might answer your question...

      SUE
      You're a vet. I've always wondered -
      which is smarter, cats or dogs?


      HENRY
      Cats are great. It's their owners
      that are nuts.


      Henry sits on his couch, reading "Infinite Jest" with the
      curtains drawn. Kate is sitting across the room from him,
      watching him sadly.


      the central theme of the novel "infinite jest- is about escape from life.
      Thank you, here's some more information:
      We already know Henry is a vet.
      Henry said that same line to Ashley earlier in the story.
      The "Infinite Jest", IMO, is the best part of the montage. It's not in the movie.
      "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
      - Clive Barker, Galilee

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Montage or quick shots?

        Originally posted by altoption View Post
        Is there room for a third camp here? One that says it's worthwhile understanding the traditions and techniques used by screenwriters for the past hundred years. And that, even so, story is king.

        Personally, I question the value of telling a new writer that there are no rules. For example, in general, it's good to be mindful of writing in an active voice in a script, using strong action verbs. So a new writer hears this and then thinks that he needs to eliminate all passive writing. Clearly that's not the case, but it's really something you need to get a feel for. And it is something that is extremely helpful to become conscious of when you first start writing.

        Same with the dreaded "we see." I've seen newbie scripts where the use of "we see" is absolutely unnecessary. In general, we see everything you describe in a script. Yet, there are times when most writers will use a "we see." For example, in many openings we see something like this: "We're soaring over a desert landscape..."

        And about montages... Typically, montages do not include dialogue. Lots of times they are written without slug lines to conserve space. If you'd like to see how montages are traditionally formatted, check out Cole & Haag, or The New Hollywood Standard.

        And bolded slug lines... Not the standard for features. Some very successful TV writers and others have adopted them for feature scripts, but the vast majority of scripts are still written without them.

        One last thing, the argument that whatever a pro says is right, and whatever you find in a sold script is okay is just plain silly. I've seen John August misuse some common screenwriting terms. Is that a knock against his writing? Of course not. John August's blog is absolutely invaluable. But it doesn't mean he's always correct. Just because Quentin Tarantino spells like he does in Inglourious Basterds, does that mean that it's okay to throw away your spellchecker? Don't be silly. Would I have preferred reading IB without all the horrendous spelling. Damn straight.

        Third camp? I think it depends upon the level of discussion.

        If Done Deal is exclusively for, as you say, "a new writer," then yes -- one should recommend using spellcheck while guarding against excessive use of "we see." If this is the purpose of Done Deal -- to inform only the newbiest of beginners -- then I missed the memo and should not be posting.

        But there was a time when the discussion here was at a more experienced level which I found way more helpful. And I'm not just talking pros. We used have more seasoned "aspiring writers" who enjoyed discussing the finer points within the "story is king" thingy.

        I think even the newbiest of newbies will find little of value in repeated threads about "we see" (can't someone sticky one of the many "we see" threads in basics and be done with it?), or boldfacing slugs, or "use spellcheck."

        But that's just me.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Montage or quick shots?

          Originally posted by altoption View Post
          Is there room for a third camp here? ...
          That's pretty much my thinking. It doesn't matter if you choose a rule or the "non-rule" option, just make your choice with an understanding of all the options. Know the options well enough to explain the logic behind your choice.
          "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
          - Clive Barker, Galilee

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Montage or quick shots?

            Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
            this might answer your question...


            the central theme of the novel "infinite jest- is about escape from life.
            You have the patience of a saint. Truly. I applaud you.

            But I do find it strange that TwoBrad's first post in this thread reeked with authority on the topic of montage yet now "we see" he did not know it was a device used to compress time. I think I figured that out when I was 12. By watching movies. Decades before I thought about writing one.

            Again, I applaud your patience, Saint Asjah.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Montage or quick shots?

              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
              You have the patience of a saint. Truly. I applaud you.

              But I do find it strange that TwoBrad's first post in this thread reeked with authority on the topic of montage yet now "we see" he did not know it was a device used to compress time. I think I figured that out when I was 12. By watching movies. Decades before I thought about writing one.

              Again, I applaud your patience, Saint Asjah.
              Compress time over any type of Subject Matter.

              Rather than related Subject Matter foremost, then compress it.
              "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
              - Clive Barker, Galilee

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                Third camp? I think it depends upon the level of discussion.

                If Done Deal is exclusively for, as you say, "a new writer," then yes -- one should recommend using spellcheck while guarding against excessive use of "we see." If this is the purpose of Done Deal -- to inform only the newbiest of beginners -- then I missed the memo and should not be posting.

                But there was a time when the discussion here was at a more experienced level which I found way more helpful. And I'm not just talking pros. We used have more seasoned "aspiring writers" who enjoyed discussing the finer points within the "story is king" thingy.

                I think even the newbiest of newbies will find little of value in repeated threads about "we see" (can't someone sticky one of the many "we see" threads in basics and be done with it?), or boldfacing slugs, or "use spellcheck."

                But that's just me.
                I think it's pretty clear I'm up for debating the finer points. But it seems to me that many of these threads start up with a newbie honestly wondering about "we see" or boldface slugs. I was suggesting there's room for some middle ground when offering a newcomer advice, too.

                As far as the old days, I remember them well. I used to go by a different screen name prior to May 2005. Lots of great debates on structure with Deus and others. But plenty of b.s. back then, too.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Montage or quick shots?

                  Originally posted by altoption View Post
                  I think it's pretty clear I'm up for debating the finer points. But it seems to me that many of these threads start up with a newbie honestly wondering about "we see" or boldface slugs. I was suggesting there's room for some middle ground when offering a newcomer advice, too.
                  Fair enough - I'll give on that point.

                  I guess my issue is I'm at a point where I'm hungry for deeper discussion. Where I'd like to see us discuss digging deeper into character, symbolism, effective sub-plots, and (shudder) theme verses long debates about using passive verbs.

                  Call me a biotch -- but I really don't care about the newbie who neglects to read as many screenplays as they can find and, instead, because of a thread on Done Deal, decides it's okay to start every single action line with "we see." Because, truthfully, educating someone that clueless is a waste of energy and time. In my opinion.

                  There's something to be said about doing your homework first. .
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Montage or quick shots?

                    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                    ... character, symbolism, effective sub-plots, and (shudder) theme ...
                    All that stuff is in Jeff's montage. How many more hints do you need from me?
                    "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                    - Clive Barker, Galilee

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Montage or quick shots?

                      Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                      All that stuff is in Jeff's montage. How many more hints do you need from me?
                      Look, I asked you nicely in basics, during another debate on the painstakingly obvious, how many scripts you've compelted to fade out. I invited you to PM me. You never did. Until you do respond to my question, I will not get stuck in another tar pit discussion with you. Capiche?

                      Until you do, I will assume you are just a dilittante -- in the purest sense of the word -- killing time here.

                      And, as someone who has mixed it up with JL in the past, and disagreed with him on many occasions, I still think it was lousy of you to pull a Syd Field on his montage when he was gracious enough to show the OP a montage he wrote from a PRODUCED SCRIPT which HE DIRECTED.

                      I still can't get over you doing that. Offer up your own pages for dissection why don't cha! I'll be there with my cyber red pen.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Montage or quick shots?

                        You're passing up what you want to do - discuss character, symbolism, effective sub-plots, and (shudder) theme.

                        I narrowed down the playing field to just Jeff's montage.

                        Any fruitful discussion will go far in answering my questions.

                        For starts:
                        How is character developed in Jeff's montage?
                        "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                        - Clive Barker, Galilee

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Montage or quick shots?

                          2b, members have been really cool, all things considered; but dissecting jeff's work would, in my opinion be crossing the line. most of us here are exceedingly grateful for any information jeff may have to offer - in short, he's not obligated to do it. he's been far kinder and more understanding than the situation has warranted.

                          sc - thanks for the kind words.
                          life happens
                          despite a few cracked pots-
                          and random sunlight

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Montage or quick shots?

                            Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
                            2b, members have been really cool, all things considered; but dissecting jeff's work would, in my opinion be crossing the line. most of us here are exceedingly grateful for any information jeff may have to offer - in short, he's not obligated to do it. he's been far kinder and more understanding than the situation has warranted.

                            sc - thanks for the kind words.
                            Fine wth me. It was the only pro example we all had access to.

                            I'm assuming it's better to talk about application (the actual screenplay) rather than theory.

                            Pick another montage or scene by a different pro writer - start a new thread if you like. I would suspect it needs to be from a movie or script we're all familiar with so we can analyze how it all fits and comes together. I even promise not to challenge sc in any way.
                            "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                            - Clive Barker, Galilee

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Montage or quick shots?

                              Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                              You're passing up what you want to do - discuss character, symbolism, effective sub-plots, and (shudder) theme.

                              I narrowed down the playing field to just Jeff's montage.

                              Any fruitful discussion will go far in answering my questions.

                              For starts:
                              How is character developed in Jeff's montage?
                              I made it clear - I will not discuss any aspect of screenwriting with you until you answer my question: how many scripts have you completed?
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                                Here's my take. IMHO, 2B was dissecting Jeff's work in order to understand Montage.

                                Even though Jeff's a pro, Jeff couldn't communicate how and why he created that particular Montage to 2Bs satisfaction. I believe 2B learns by his particular style of questioning, which at times frustrates many.

                                Jeff's patience was pushed to the limit.

                                Come back, Jeff.

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