Montage or quick shots?

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  • #61
    Re: Montage or quick shots?

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    I made it clear - I will not discuss any aspect of screenwriting with you until you answer my question: how many scripts have you completed?
    I can live with that.

    But, please, don't let me get in the way of you having a good discussion with someone else. I'm just trying to get a discussion started.

    Truthful answer to your question: I really don't know. I've been doing this for a very long time and I'm not about to go back and count them all. Please don't take this as an indication that I want to discuss anything screenwriting with you. I did make a promise.
    "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
    - Clive Barker, Galilee

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Montage or quick shots?

      Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
      Here's my take. IMHO, 2B was dissecting Jeff's work in order to understand Montage.

      Even though Jeff's a pro, Jeff couldn't communicate how and why he created that particular Montage to 2Bs satisfaction. I believe 2B learns by his particular style of questioning, which at times frustrates many.

      Jeff's patience was pushed to the limit.

      Come back, Jeff.
      Close, but no cigar.

      For example:
      I really believe the Examining Room scene has no place in that montage and should be deleted (not because of any rules - it just feels out of place). But, instead, I said I was confused about it (and others) and asked why it's there. I was giving Jeff the benefit of the doubt and acknowledging that I might be missing something.

      The only response I got back (not from Jeff) is that it's because a Montage is a compression of time and can include anything the writer deems fit.

      If that explanation is good enough for you, then fine. But, I haven't learned anything new.
      "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
      - Clive Barker, Galilee

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Montage or quick shots?

        Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
        Close, but no cigar.

        For example:
        I really believe the Examining Room scene has no place in that montage and should be deleted (not because of any rules - it just feels out of place). But, instead, I said I was confused about it (and others) and asked why it's there. I was giving Jeff the benefit of the doubt and acknowledging that I might be missing something.

        The only response I got back (not from Jeff) is that it's because a Montage is a compression of time and can include anything the writer deems fit.

        If that explanation is good enough for you, then fine. But, I haven't learned anything new.
        Maybe it's in there because it's fucking cute that he's trying to lift the fat ass dog... and audiences like cute (especially the demographic for this genre), not just shit that is dramatically justified.

        You do realize audiences are a big factor in what you put into a script, right? As in - entertaining them.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Montage or quick shots?

          Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
          Maybe it's in there because it's fucking cute that he's trying to lift the fat ass dog... and audiences like cute (especially the demographic for this genre), not just shit that is dramatically justified.

          You do realize audiences are a big factor in what you put into a script, right? As in - entertaining them.
          Yes, cute ... that works especially after the set-up.

          That brings me to another question, but never-mind.
          "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
          - Clive Barker, Galilee

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Montage or quick shots?

            Yes, if the dog was used earlier in the script it's a cute callback to a plant, and the montage effectively conveys a "life goes on" theme throughout its course.

            A montage doesn't have to develop a character, especially late in the game when your characters are fully developed and actions are set in motion.

            A montage can do any number of things - as dictated by the writer. A montage doesn't even have to be used to truncate time or show a passage of time, many times a montage takes place in overlapping time (attempting to simultaneously show many parties displaced by distance, not time - short of using a split or quad screen).

            I think you're over-thinking some of this.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Montage or quick shots?

              Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
              I think you're over-thinking some of this.
              An undertstatement, no?
              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
                Yes, if the dog was used earlier in the script it's a cute callback to a plant, and the montage effectively conveys a "life goes on" theme throughout its course.

                A montage doesn't have to develop a character, especially late in the game when your characters are fully developed and actions are set in motion.

                A montage can do any number of things - as dictated by the writer. A montage doesn't even have to be used to truncate time or show a passage of time, many times a montage takes place in overlapping time (attempting to simultaneously show many parties displaced by distance, not time - short of using a split or quad screen).

                I think you're over-thinking some of this.
                Thank you, good stuff. Simple. Something every pro and newbie should know and be able to articulate.

                Makes me wonder what all the fuss was about.
                "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                - Clive Barker, Galilee

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Montage or quick shots?

                  Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                  Thank you, good stuff. Simple. Something every pro and newbie should know and be able to articulate.

                  Makes me wonder what all the fuss was about.
                  I do believe you've been disqualified from the contest.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Montage or quick shots?

                    Originally posted by TwoBrad Bradley View Post
                    Thank you, good stuff. Simple. Something every pro and newbie should know and be able to articulate.
                    I think most pros are concerned with writing screenplays rather than with articulating the process. Not every great pro is a great teacher.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Montage or quick shots?

                      Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                      I think most pros are concerned with writing screenplays rather than with articulating the process. Not every great pro is a great teacher.
                      i agree with your comments most times jp, but i disagree with this trail of thinking. in a public message board setting, it's not the responsibility of the pros, to better articulate the answers; i believe, it's our responsibility to properly ask the questions we're seeking. lord knows, if i'm at all concerned about being clear and i really need an answer, then i have no problem including a link, clipart, film clip and doodles to make my point.

                      apologies btw, i'm not trying to put you on the spot.
                      Last edited by asjah8; 09-30-2010, 06:57 PM.
                      life happens
                      despite a few cracked pots-
                      and random sunlight

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Montage or quick shots?

                        Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
                        in a public message board setting, it's not the responsibility of the pros, to better articulate the answers; i believe, it's our responsibility to properly ask the questions we're seeking. lord knows, if i'm at all concerned about being clear and i really need an answer, then i have no problem including a link, clipart, film clip and doodles to make my point.

                        apologies btw, i'm not trying to put you on the spot.
                        No apologies necessary, asjah. Good points.

                        I agree, it's not the pros' resopnsibility to better articulate the answers. No rule requires them to.

                        And, you're right, we, Brad included, should properly ask the questions. By properly, I think you mean clearly, respectfully, and with a genuine desire to find the answer, not to win a debate.

                        It seems as if what we have here on this forum is a failure to communicate. [Hey, I think that Cool Hand Luke line works here ]

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Montage or quick shots?

                          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                          Well, I labeled it as a montage because it's a montage. I wanted to move through a story point in the script quickly, using short scenes that don't have the normal beginning, middle and end. I'm compressing time and moving through different locations. I.E., a montage.

                          I wanted it to play as a montage in the finished movie. I expected that music would play over it, tying it together, as happens with a lot of montages. In the movie, a song comes up under the first scene, dips down so we can hear the dialogue when we have to, then swells back up at the end. The song ends when the montage is over.

                          Because I labeled it as such, when the editor was given the footage for this part of the movie, he assembled it as a montage, putting the music cues in the right place. So he didn't seem confused by it.



                          It would throw me out of it more having four little mini-scenes that were basically shots. "MONTAGE" keys me into what's happening. And I knew it was over when it said "END MONTAGE." The script sold twice and got produced, and never once did one person seem confused or ask me to change it.

                          (And again, the editor understood completely and edited it correctly without further guidance.)



                          But a lot of montages move to separate locations and times of day. I'm not aware of a better shorthand to show locations and times of day than sluglines.

                          John August is one of my favorite writers. Here's a montage of his from Big Fish:



                          Sluglines, voice over, dialogue within the scenes... Looks good to me.
                          A BIG FAT thank you for this Jeff, so timely. I was stuck on how to write a group of 3-4 short scenes (little or no dialogue) that illustrates the world through which my protag will have to navigate. Grazie!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Montage or quick shots?

                            Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                            No apologies necessary, asjah. Good points.

                            I agree, it's not the pros' resopnsibility to better articulate the answers. No rule requires them to.

                            And, you're right, we, Brad included, should properly ask the questions. By properly, I think you mean clearly, respectfully, and with a genuine desire to find the answer, not to win a debate.

                            It seems as if what we have here on this forum is a failure to communicate. [Hey, I think that Cool Hand Luke line works here ]
                            thank you for understanding where i was going with it. your post gave me a launching point to comment on a greater problem i saw going through the thread, so replying to your words wasn't actually directed at you.



                            some good, new information about a montage came out of this thread chaos:
                            Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
                            Yes, if the dog was used earlier in the script it's a cute callback to a plant, and the montage effectively conveys a "life goes on" theme throughout its course.

                            A montage doesn't have to develop a character, especially late in the game when your characters are fully developed and actions are set in motion.

                            A montage can do any number of things - as dictated by the writer. A montage doesn't even have to be used to truncate time or show a passage of time, many times a montage takes place in overlapping time (attempting to simultaneously show many parties displaced by distance, not time - short of using a split or quad screen).

                            I think you're over-thinking some of this.
                            but i also think a lot of headache and frustration for jeff could have been avoided if he'd received a better question. i'm not targeting brad here btw, because this problem seems to run through many threads on the board. i mean, film is a communication medium. unless i'm totally off base here, i believe strong communication skills are a necessary skill to survive in screenwriting. and not just writing words on a page, but writing to communicate a thought, an idea, a story... or a question for a pro.

                            okay, off my soapbox and back to being a noob.
                            life happens
                            despite a few cracked pots-
                            and random sunlight

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Montage or quick shots?

                              I'm having second thoughts:

                              One: Is it okay to dissect Jeff's montage if the result, after a much-heated discussion, turns out to be that everything Jeff did works great and would be of value to a newbie?

                              Two: In the movie, the scene just before the montage Ashley says that Kate hasn't been around since they (Henry & Ashley) stopped seeing each other. In the written montage Kate is in most of the shots, but she is just watching. In the movie Kate is only in the last shot. To me this feels like a big change to the "feel" of the sequence.

                              I have the rare opportunity to ask the writer (who just happens to be the director) about that change. Should I ask him? Would you expect an answer?
                              "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                              - Clive Barker, Galilee

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Montage or quick shots?

                                Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
                                ... but i also think a lot of headache and frustration for jeff could have been avoided if he'd received a better question. i'm not targeting brad here btw, because this problem seems to run through many threads on the board. i mean, film is a communication medium. unless i'm totally off base here, i believe strong communication skills are a necessary skill to survive in screenwriting. and not just writing words on a page, but writing to communicate a thought, an idea, a story... or a question for a pro.

                                okay, off my soapbox and back to being a noob.
                                Speaking for myself, here is my questions from before:

                                I have no problem with the MONTAGE. It conforms to the current Hollywood usage.
                                I have no problem with the Scene Headings.

                                It is a confusing Montage though.
                                - What does the Examining Room scene have to do with the "message" of the Montage?
                                - The Street and Hallway Scenes could have been as effective without the dialogue (with minor changes). Keep the music going.
                                - Why Ashley? Isn't this just about Kate's and Henry's relationship?
                                How better could I have asked that?

                                The reply was something like, "Thank you for the notes, I'll keep them in mind for the rewrite."

                                Just maybe the answers could be better.
                                "I am the story itself; its source, its voice, its music."
                                - Clive Barker, Galilee

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