Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

    Saw it last night. IMAX 3D. Perfect seat.

    My screenwriter brain can pick apart everything that's "wrong" with it -- and it would be a long list.

    But I still loved it. I whooped. I was IN it. I want to see it again. It makes me excited about the power of movies.... All the feelings I had about New Hope and Empire (and none of the others).

    So now I need to figure out how, despite all the things that were "wrong" with the script, did the movie work so well? And what does that tell me about what really matters?
    "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

    Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

      Originally posted by LauriD View Post
      So now I need to figure out how, despite all the things that were "wrong" with the script, did the movie work so well?
      Because it was a re-boot of A New Hope? There's not much here to figure out. There's a formula for how Star Wars works. Think about it, 3 out of the 4 best Star Wars were basically some version of A New Hope, complete with a death star blowing up at the end. That's not a coincidence.

      It's just like Indiana Jones. For an Indy to work you need Nazi's + Bible Artifacts + 1930's. Commi's + Aliens + 1950's doesn't work.

      Of course, Empire had a different formula, which is why VIII will likely copy it too.
      I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

        Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
        You do realize that he's the greatest sci-fi (maybe any genre) movie villain of all time, right? Remember, one-dimensional characters like Vader exist in real life -- Hitler, Saddam, Bush etc.
        Yes, Vader is a good villain, but he is a character from another time and can't be replicated easily. In fact, the best reincarnation of Vader is the villain in Mad Max Fury Road. And that works because it is also very silly.

        Such a character can't be taken seriously today, he's not a human being. No one is like that. The only weaknes he has, if it can be called that, is that he is not really repected by the imperial officers. He is only a henchman, a bully. And he works in that particular role. Can you even imagine him sitting by the dinner table or doing any mundane work?

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

          Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
          Because it was a re-boot of A New Hope? There's not much here to figure out. There's a formula for how Star Wars works. Think about it, 3 out of the 4 best Star Wars were basically some version of A New Hope, complete with a death star blowing up at the end. That's not a coincidence.

          .
          That's not the part that worked for ME. In fact, that rather glaring repeat was what bothered me the most while I was watching it. I was like -- seriously? -- an even bigger round thing that blows up planets??

          It was the many, many smaller things that I loved... And the characters... and the world...
          "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

          Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

            Saw last night with the children in tow. They loved it; I enjoyed it enough but ultimately felt more relieved that it wasn't terrible rather than overwhelmed by how great it was.

            There were a couple of really odd things for me (and I'm not a SW nerd by any stretch). The scale seemed weird - a weapon/base capable of destroying five planets at once is taken down by a handful of X-Wings? Where were the millions of troops seen at the Nazi rally? Even the scene of them taking down the shields seemed really anticlimactic - think of ROTJ where a whole battle is needed to destroy the shield over the Death Star, with each delay leading to more deaths in the Rebel fleet - here they literally just tell Sassy Stormtrooper to turn it off, she says 'You'll regret this'..... and then presses a button. Done.

            And literally having the exact same device of 'secret plan in droid, droid ends up with person who happens to be Jedi in waiting' did feel a bit disappointing. Surely at the script meeting someone must have said 'Wait a minute - I'm sure I've seen a film do this before...'

            I agree that Rey was occasionally a little too brilliant at everything, but my daughters loved her so I guess it's working. Oscar Isaac was hamming it up perfectly in keeping with the original films, so hopefully we'll get more of him. I was surprised at how Han's death seemed oddly unmoving - maybe everyone had heard already, but the audience I was with didn't really react. The effects were good - they did a great job of giving CGI a model-like feel.

            I dunno. It's not a bad film and amongst the current generation of Potter, Tolkien etc it truly holds its own. And compared to the trailers for all the crap that preceded it (yeah Warcraft I'm looking at you) it feels like a proper film rather than a $100m ad for a toy/game/lunchbox empire. Maybe given the tidal wave of praise it's had I was expecting a little more, but that's my fault rather than the film's.
            My stuff

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

              Originally posted by Jon Jay View Post
              I agree that Rey was occasionally a little too brilliant at everything
              Occasionally? Her entire story consists of her discovering that she's better at everything than everybody.

              This is where agenda concerns are ruining aesthetic decisions. Can you imagine if, in the 1977 version of this film, the moment that Luke entered the Millennium Falcon, he had immediately told Han the right way to fix and pilot his ship? Multiple times?

              Because that's exactly what happens in this picture: Han's role basically consists of being taught how to fix and work his ship by the girl. Luke, by contrast, while a natural pilot, still had to discover that there were things about flying through space that he didn't know -- and generally, that he had a lot to learn; that the universe was a bigger and more intimidating place than he ever imagined.

              That's good storytelling. That's good character building.

              In fact, I can tell you exactly how a know-it-all Luke (like this know-it-all-girl) would have been perceived, a young character who walks onto the bridge of a spacecraft and tells everybody their business and does it all better than they can. We have precisely such an example: Wesley Crusher. On ST:TNG. Whom the creators oh-so-desperately insisted that the audience love and admire as a boy genius, but instead came off as the TVTropes-naming, textbook example of a "creator's pet" character whom the audience despises.

              Such a character would never have been greenlit for this film in male form; but in female form, then the obvious Mary Sue problems here weren't called out, and we're stuck with a ridiculously implausible character.

              Or imagine if, in the very first film, Luke hadn't even had the track-ball training, but had nevertheless managed to beat Vader in a lightsaber duel, right from the get-go, as the girl did to the villain in this piece. It would have been ridiculous.

              I mean, where does the series go from here? We've already established that she's a better pilot than Han friggin' Solo, a better Force user than the number-two Sith. She'll probably be instantly better than Luke ("I have nothing to teach you") -- because any actual teaching would be "mansplaining" -- then zip right off to Snoke and take him out. It certainly feels like that's within her current, rapidly-nearing-omnipotence abilities.

              Wait, forget Wesley. I have another example, a female example, of how mainstream audiences can quickly get sick of Mary Sues: Rhonda Roussey. (Yes, this is pertinent, because it's also about crafting narratives.) The press hyped her as an unstoppable force who, improbably, could even defeat male boxers... and when she went down to Holly Holm, the tidal wave of satisfaction from audiences astonished the media.

              Good youthful hero or heroine characters are those who have a lot to learn, who need their friends to help them out, who fail, are impossibly outmatched by their antagonists. Like Luke, who isn't even in the same league as the villain in his first film, loses badly in the second, then barely, barely manages to overcome him in the third. Creating a straw-man villain for a hero/heroine to dispatch so handily makes that protagonist seem comparably artificial.

              I would certainly rank the films:
              -Empire Strikes Back
              -Star Wars
              - - - - vast gap in quality - - - -
              -Return of the Jedi (no better than the prequels)
              -Attack of the Clones
              -Revenge of the Jedi
              -Phantom Menace
              and then...
              -this third-rate, half-parodic rip off of an infinitely better film
              Last edited by karsten; 12-21-2015, 05:29 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                Originally posted by karsten View Post
                Occasionally? Her entire story consists of her discovering that she's better at everything than everybody.
                It's funny... I can agree intellectually with everything you say, but I still really enjoyed the movie and would rank it right after New Hope and Empire.
                "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

                Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                  Originally posted by karsten View Post
                  Occasionally? Her entire story consists of her discovering that she's better at everything than everybody.

                  This is where agenda concerns are ruining aesthetic decisions. Can you imagine if, in the 1977 version of this film, the moment that Luke entered the Millennium Falcon, he had immediately told Han the right way to fix and pilot his ship? Multiple times?
                  No, but he did fly an X-Wing better than any Rebel pilot and out-piloted Darth Vader in the trenches of the Death Star, despite being a farmer.

                  Rey scavenged ships for a living and lived in a junkyard. It's just as (if not more) reasonable that she had the mechanical traits she had than it is that Luke could pilot an X-Wing.

                  I don't recall anyone flipping out when Threepio told Han to replace the power coupling in TESB.

                  As for beating Ren - she was getting her ass handed to her by Ren until he told her he needed more training. Not to mention the fact that Ren had been hit in the gut with a crossbow, and hit in the shoulder with a laser blade.

                  If Rey weren't female, really not sure we'd get all these objections to her character. It was typical Hero's Journey stuff.

                  There are obviously a lot of flaws in the film - but its enjoyable and entertaining. It's not The Empire Strikes Back, but its a worthy addition to the saga, and very much in line with the others in terms of tone and believability. As Kasdan said himself "this is Star Wars, so why not?"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                    Originally posted by LauriD View Post
                    It's funny... I can agree intellectually with everything you say, but I still really enjoyed the movie and would rank it right after New Hope and Empire.
                    This.

                    The poster above has dramatically overstated and oversold what happens in the film. That may be why we can agree intellectually with them, but not when actually viewing the film. I saw it again over the weekend, and people objecting to Rey beating Ren are objecting to it on paper - as presented in the film, it's quite different than what they argue it to be.

                    The poster's argument above that Rey being female was actually done to avoid "Mary Sue" complaints (and that if she were male, there would be more objection) is obviously ironic and just plain ridiculous.
                    Last edited by thirdman23; 12-21-2015, 06:57 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                      Originally posted by thirdman23 View Post
                      No, but he did fly an X-Wing better than any Rebel pilot and out-piloted Darth Vader in the trenches of the Death Star, despite being a farmer"
                      You're making my point for me. In the 1977 version, Vader had Luke dead in his sights. ("I have you now.") The only reason Vader didn't kill him is because Han swooped in and surprised Vader. Luke survived because his friends helped him. He didn't even come close to beating Vader: alone, he was toast.

                      That's how you create a believable young hero, and not a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu: someone who has some talent, but still has a long way to go, is still outmatched, and only scrapes by with a lot of mentoring and help.

                      That's what makes it a "hero's journey," not "hero's arrival."

                      Originally posted by thirdman
                      The poster's argument above that Rey being female was actually done to avoid "Mary Sue" complaints (and that if she were male, there would be more objection) is obviously ironic and just plain ridiculous
                      Originally posted by thirdman23 View Post
                      If Rey weren't female, really not sure we'd get all these objections to her character. It was typical Hero's Journey stuff. "
                      No, it is anything but ironic. I trust that we can at least assume that we're all discussing this in good faith, yes?

                      As I pointed out above, it's very much equivalent to the Wesley Crusher situation, and would have been called out as such and stopped at the script stage if the character had been male.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                        Originally posted by Bananos View Post
                        Yes, Vader is a good villain, but he is a character from another time and can't be replicated easily. In fact, the best reincarnation of Vader is the villain in Mad Max Fury Road. And that works because it is also very silly.

                        Such a character can't be taken seriously today, he's not a human being. No one is like that. The only weakness he has, if it can be called that, is that he is not really respected by the imperial officers. He is only a henchman, a bully. And he works in that particular role. Can you even imagine him sitting by the dinner table or doing any mundane work?
                        I hear that for his next film, JJ is doing a sequel to Jaws, with the completely original plot of a shark attacking a small seaside community.

                        Except this time, the shark will be much smaller (sort of the like the minor tiger shark that the first group of fishermen caught in the 1975 film). You know, a more realistic size. Who can take a shark that big seriously, these days?

                        And Martin Brody will be changed to policewoman Martina Brody. And while out hunting the shark, she'll teach the professional oceanographer about professional oceanography. (Not that she's ever studied it, mind you; she just knows it from living around fish.)

                        And she'll teach the shark hunter how to fix and drive his boat. Not that she's ever been out to sea, but, you know, XX chromosome.

                        Oh, and she's not afraid of the water. Or sharks.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                          It certainly isn't a bad movie. It's fast-paced, witty and ultimately a lot of fun. There are a few things though that make it less than it could have been:

                          There are too many elements of the original movie in it, especially the new Death Star (Starkiller base) and how it gets defeated. We have a new Luke (Rey), a new Leia (Finn), a new Han (Poe), a new R2D2 (BB8) and a new albeit wannabe Vader (Kylo). We also have a mentor figure and so on and so forth. In contrast to the original though, there's no new character the audience can identify with throughout the story. EVERY single new character is turned into a mystery. We don't really know the backstories of Rey, Finn or Poe. We know more about the villain Kylo than any of the good guys, but even his backstory remains in the shadows. The only character who fulfills the role of identification, is ultimately killed off.

                          With the bad guys, the movie is partly pulling a Mandarin on us. I know they created Kylo as a wimp on purpose, but it made him less of a menace. He's unpredictable alright, but not a great movie villain. AVENGERS 2 suffered the same fate.

                          Like THE HOBBIT, part one, this movie feels anticlimactic. It's just a large exposition for the next installments. At the same time, the backstory seems to be more interesting than the events that happen on screen, because we have seen it all before.

                          Another thing I didn't get was the world this story takes place in. We have a desert planet that looks like Tattooine, but isn't (Jakuu). We have a snowy planet that looks like Hoth, but isn't (Starkiller Base), and so on and so forth. Why is there a new Resistance (Rebel Alliance)? Shouldn't they be the Government now that the "dark side" lost the war? If the First Order was established out of the ruins of the Empire, how are they able to build a Starkiller Base 15 times the size of their biggest Death Star from 30 years ago? Shouldn't they be less powerful or is that just the advance in technology? Add the fact that the movie changes the rules of the force as we know it (can a lightsaber call out to someone?) without explaining them or setting them up properly, there's a lot left to be desired.

                          They are using a lot of meta-humor in it, which is a tell-tale sign of parody, but GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY does it much better. It wouldn't have hurt to make it a bit less goofy. I don't know if that's even possible after SPACEBALLS, but who knows?

                          Those are my screenwriting criticisms. I also didn't get why they went to such great lengths to use real props and real locations only to make Supreme Leader Snoke (the new Emperor) a CGI character. Other than that, I thought it was well done.
                          Last edited by Yaso; 12-21-2015, 07:39 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                            Originally posted by karsten View Post
                            You're making my point for me. In the 1977 version, Vader had Luke dead in his sights. ("I have you now.") The only reason Vader didn't kill him is because Han swooped in and surprised Vader. Luke survived because his friends helped him. He didn't even come close to beating Vader: alone, he was toast.

                            That's how you create a believable young hero, and not a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu: someone who has some talent, but still has a long way to go, is still outmatched, and only scrapes by with a lot of mentoring and help.
                            Rey was also toast when Ren had her on the edge. How was that any different? He dominated the fight until that point. Solo helping out Skywalker was a plot point in ANH, but it is not a necessary step in the Hero's Journey. Certainly, had there been a comp in TFA, people would've complained even more vociferously about copying ANH.

                            Let's not forget that Luke Skywalker received a grand total of 45 seconds of Jedi training from Obi-Wan Kenobi in his life. Rey presumably had several years of Jedi training as a young girl.

                            As I pointed out above, it's very much equivalent to the Wesley Crusher situation, and would have been called out as such and stopped at the script stage if the character had been male.
                            We can discuss this in good faith, but what reason do you have to suggest female characters receive LESS scrutiny than their male counterparts?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                              Originally posted by thirdman23 View Post
                              Rey was also toast when Ren had her on the edge. How was that any different?
                              Because no one helped the girl win. She just, deux-ex-machina-like, suddenly acquired years of overwhelming training and skill out of thin air. And even with Han's help, Luke didn't turn around and defeat Vader in the '77 movie.

                              Originally posted by thirdman23 View Post
                              Let's not forget that Luke Skywalker received a grand total of 45 seconds of Jedi training from Obi-Wan Kenobi in his life. Rey presumably had several years of Jedi training as a young girl.
                              Where are you getting this "years of Jedi training"? There's zero evidence of any such thing.

                              And Luke received a sustained stint of training from Yoda before facing Vader. And even after he did, he still lost to him; quite badly. Was humiliated by Vader, in fact. That's good storytelling, and a fine tracing of a hero's progress. If Luke had bested Vader in Empire, that still would have been too early; let alone in the 1977 film, as an untrained kid.

                              Again, you're making my point for me.

                              Originally posted by thirdman23 View Post
                              We can discuss this in good faith, but what reason do you have to suggest female characters receive LESS scrutiny than their male counterparts?
                              Find me a young Gary Stu to match this young Mary Sue.

                              A bit of it can be seen in Little Anakin in The Phantom Menace (though at least he doesn't fight and best Darth Maul) -- and that over-adeptness of the kid was, in fact, one of the things that audiences rightly have considered absurd about TPM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens -contains spoilers

                                Originally posted by karsten View Post
                                Because no one helped the girl win. She just, deux-ex-machina-like, suddenly acquired years of overwhelming training and skill out of thin air. And even with Han's help, Luke didn't turn around and defeat Vader in the '77 movie.
                                Sorry, I must've missed the part where she killed Kylo Ren. I saw her knock him on his ass in one quick outburst when she caught a badly injured Ren off his guard. Last I checked she just managed a draw.

                                Where are you getting this "years of Jedi training"? There's zero evidence of any such thing.
                                The flashback implies she is Luke's daughter.

                                And Luke received a sustained stint of training from Yoda before facing Vader. And even after he did, he still lost to him; quite badly. Was humiliated by Vader, in fact. That's good storytelling, and a fine tracing of a hero's progress. If Luke had bested Vader in Empire, that still would have been too early; let alone in the 1977 film, as an untrained kid.
                                Luke was on Dagobah for a week. Anakin trained as a Jedi for 15 years, and then under Palpatine for another 20 years before he met Luke on Bespin. If we are being as literal as you want to be, Vader should not nearly as struggled as much with Luke as he did in TESB or ROTJ.

                                But again, these are movies.

                                A bit of it can be seen in Little Anakin in The Phantom Menace (though at least he doesn't fight and best Darth Maul) -- and that over-adeptness of the kid was, in fact, one of the things that audiences rightly have considered absurd about TPM.
                                Anakin being 9 years old, Jake Lloyd being not very good at acting, and George Lucas writing "oops, yippeee!" repeatedly in that scene might've had something to do with that.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X