How fast things change...when you're published

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  • #16
    Re: How fast things change...when you're published

    Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
    if you can write exquisitely well (and that means spelling and grammar count, not to mention showing that you write convincing dialogue, know how a paragraph is constructed and understand that a novel is not just a screenplay with more words.
    Man, you are making this hard.

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    • #17
      Re: How fast things change...when you're published

      Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
      And you heard this gem where...? Are you up on the market, are you in the market, do you have any idea that some 10,000 works of fiction are published annually here?
      The guy who wrote "A million..." (James Frey?) said it on Oprah. He said his agent encouraged him to pitch it as non-fiction, and that fiction isn't selling. Then the crap hit the fan as most know.

      (I hope that was good sentence construction. Considering the fact that I have a few wines in me)

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      • #18
        Re: How fast things change...when you're published

        My comment wasn't directed at the James Frey flap; it was at the comment that "non-fiction is the only thing selling". Nonfiction is always strong; but fiction is doing very well, thanks very much.

        Publishing in the US is going through a very bad patch at the moment. 2010 promises to be much better, but, again, in order to compete in this market you have to show that you're better than the competition. And that means, in all seriousness, being better than competent. You really have to have a style--something you really develop only after a lot of trial and error--and be able to bring characters to life and not write like you're painting by numbers.

        I've told it before, but I had to write 12 novels before my 13th--my first official novel--was published. That's 12 years of full-time work.

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        • #19
          Re: How fast things change...when you're published

          Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
          Is it possible? Yes, if you're very very very very very very good. If you're not, if you haven't put in the time (i.e. done your apprenticeship years, and I mean years), if you can write exquisitely well (and that means spelling and grammar count, not to mention showing that you write convincing dialogue, know how a paragraph is constructed and understand that a novel is not just a screenplay with more words), and if you have a style that is utterly natural to you and the subject of your work, and you can sustain a narrative for 100,000 words, then sure, you have a, let's say, one in three million chance.
          This comes across as a little patronizing.
          https://twitter.com/#!/moviewriterJeff

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          • #20
            Re: How fast things change...when you're published

            Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
            Is it possible? Yes, if you're very very very very very very good. If you're not, if you haven't put in the time (i.e. done your apprenticeship years, and I mean years), if you can write exquisitely well (and that means spelling and grammar count, not to mention showing that you write convincing dialogue, know how a paragraph is constructed and understand that a novel is not just a screenplay with more words), and if you have a style that is utterly natural to you and the subject of your work, and you can sustain a narrative for 100,000 words, then sure, you have a, let's say, one in three million chance.
            Then how do you explain Stephenie Meyers?

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            • #21
              Re: How fast things change...when you're published

              Originally posted by Landis26 View Post
              Then how do you explain Stephenie Meyers?
              And Dan Brown, too. John Grisham could also slip into that list.

              There will always be aberrations but, frankly, if you have something that original and know your market that well, then you'll be fine. These books are high concept in its truest sense. Not many books are.

              What Jake is talking about is the rest of us. That might not be you, but it probably is.


              (One can't help but imagine what it would be like if they had those same page turning stories AND wrote beautiful prose...)
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              • #22
                Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                Originally posted by nic.h View Post


                (One can't help but imagine what it would be like if they had those same page turning stories AND wrote beautiful prose...)
                I think Dennis Lehane fits in that category. Literary hard boiled crime thrillers that keep you up all night turning the pages. Mystic River and especially the series of 5 novels with the private dicks, one of which made it to the big screen, Gone Baby Gone. Another adaptation is coming out soon, Shutter Island, another stand alone, but I did not like that one nearly as much as the others I mentioned. Anyway, very smart, beautifully written, bone chilling, riveting stuff. Oozing with mood and character.

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                • #23
                  Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                  Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
                  Is it possible? Yes, if you're very very very very very very good.
                  This is an often heard, commonplace comment.

                  Like all commonplace comments, it misses the mark.

                  You don't have to be very good,
                  You don't have to be very, very good,
                  You don't have to be very, very, very good,
                  You don't have to be very, very, very, very good,
                  You don't have to be very, very, very, very, very good,
                  You don't have to even be very, very, very, very, very, very good.

                  You don't have to even be just good.

                  Look at the newly published novels desk at the bookstore.

                  Almost all of this stuff has no style, no mastery of words, no particular interesting angle of storytelling, no wit, no reasoning, no personality. All sounds the same as if written by the same machine. And most of it ends in the recycle bin or serves as decoration for book cases in furniture houses, gets sold by the pound, rots on book shelves, or gets simply thrown away.

                  And once in a while you find a book that seems to know where it's going and what it is doing, there is a thought behind every sentence, a reason for it to be here. It has, in short, personality.

                  Why can't this complex literary system, with all its agents and publishers and filtering systems, do better?

                  They can't because there isn't enough good material to go around.

                  So they have to decide which of the junk to publish.

                  The writers' marketing guides all recommend: write the opportune kind of junk, en vogue at this moment, and you will get published.

                  But why does this literary machine miss out on original material so often?

                  Does it? I don't think it does.

                  Isn't it rather the writer who destroys his originality by trying to write like everybody else who has sold a lot? Isn't it rather the author who doesn't dare to write how he thinks is right? And if he dares, can't finish anything because he can't finish without the back pat of recognition? Who then makes concessions, flirts with the market place, throws away what he has, and turns it into junk (which he hopes will get him recognition, back pats, and money?). Isn't it rather the writer who's at fault here, because he betrays himself, and ends up in the category of the hustling hack? Lands him in the casino of literary material, where the numbers game is played, and where marketing and networking, not writing rules? Isn't he at fault himself for this hell of junk?

                  Of course, truly original material will often get turned down, win no competitions, will live in the dark for quite a while. Because it can't be seen.

                  Only a minority of people can read literary material and judge it on what they are reading. Most just compare to what they have read, and as they haven't read anything like it when they read original material, they can't see this material.

                  Such a writer needs to look for a person who can think and, therefore, judge - and see.

                  Of those who can judge, even they can't judge all good material equally well. Because there will always be good material that simply doesn't interest them.

                  So, the true difficulties of the writer are:
                  1. To have a backbone and write what he thinks and what is true for him.
                  2. To find a person that can judge.
                  3. Find a person that can judge his kind of material.

                  Difficult. But the most difficult point is point 1.

                  Not to look at the market place while he is writing. To have guts. To trust his guts when he writes, because nobody can every put the seal of approval on writing. Not to copy others. To be able to learn from another writer without losing himself in that other. To have a backbone. An instinct what fits. Not to judge himself. To have in front of his mind what he goes after, just like the old sailors oriented themselves after the stars because they couldn't see the land they were going to. Not to try to prove himself. Not to try to be good (which is already the evil of being dependent of other people's opinions and the loss of independence). To fight all the temptations and be a writer of true independence, who doesn't need any person's "good".

                  If he survives all this - how difficult can point 2 and 3 be?
                  "Ecco il grande Zampano!"

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                  • #24
                    Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                    Well according to Salon.com's "Reader's Guide to Contemporary Authors," one of my most cherished possessions, these very same questions, the demise of the intelligent book and reader, were debated 100 years ago...

                    So I think everybody has always been saying it's a terrible time to be a writer and everybody has always been questioning public taste and the decisions of the industry and everybody has always been lamenting the end of literature... although clearly there are trends today that cannot be dismissed, technology has changed a lot of things, people don't read as much etc. But even before, there was always a reason.

                    I think the disparity between the so called excellence that is required and the quality of the material published has always been subject for debate, much as screenwriters are dismayed at the many films with poor scripts that get made --except that in the film industry, the argument is that it is never the writer's fault because other people come into the picture and butcher the original masterpiece.

                    From what I understand the publishing houses can no longer afford to publish small brilliant authors that used to be supported by their bestsellers, or offer the same wealth of variety they were known for and proud of (so they say). Also, marketing departments are now more responsible for the final greenlight, not editors, so there you go. I read a comment by an agent who said that his client's book was turned down because the publisher wasn't sure the client would be guaranteed a spot on Oprah. Also, the notion of nurturing a young writer over the long haul is out of style.

                    Anyway, but there are also indie presses, the internet, blogs, etc, more options today to get your words out there, whether they make money or not. I don't read much these days, but I am pretty confident that there are still many good books that get published... such as Jake's of course

                    People often say that the great masterpieces of yesteryear would never get published today. Some writers have actually ripped the title page off of great classics and submitted the same exact book to editors only to have them rejected. !!!

                    SO: Nobody knows nottin'. But it costs a lot less money to publish a novel than to make a film, so they can afford to cast out a wide net and just see what sticks. 10 000 + per year... that's 27 novels a day !!!! Isn't that sort of the number of specs that get made in one YEAR?

                    The war between art and commerce rages on, and I think the people in either industry who find that perfect marriage are the ones most likely to succeed AND be proud of their work.

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                    • #25
                      Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                      Magicman took a year off to write a thriller novel (his first) and bagged a 3 book deal. He wrote a thriller, hence my question earlier in the thread. Like specs there are certain genres in publishing that will increase your chances of bagging a deal and thrillers seem to be at the top of the list although I've heard that romance is selling well. Personally I have no interest in writing genre books but genre seems to be where the deals are.

                      Jake--by very, very good do you mean the quality of the prose because I can't imagine that you have to write like Proust if you are writing an airport block buster? If it is lit fiction then yes, I can imagine that you need to be extremely good to stand out form the crowd but with thrillers you need to write a great page turner and from Magicman's experience it seems his years of screenwriting served him well in writing a thriller since he was practised in writing fast moving narrative.
                      Blog: http://writinglounge.blogspot.com
                      Email: kidcharlemagne108[at]yahoo[dot]co[uk]

                      "What is your greatest ambition? To become immortal and then die." - Breathless

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                      • #26
                        Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                        I think it's a lot harder to be a great novelist than a great screenwriter. No doubt about it.

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                        • #27
                          Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                          Publishers are no fools. They know that Dan Brown couldn't write a decent, sensible sentence if he tried. This is a whole other level of fiction writing that really bears little relation to the realities of trying to break into the fiction market yesterday, today or tomorrow.

                          This is the kind of fiction that ranks alongside, say, the forthcoming Sarah Palin autobiography. It has a built-in fan-base, and neither the style or the content really much matters to the editors.

                          But editors are the front line in the fiction market, and they well know that 99% of the manuscripts sent to them by agents ("over the transform" is so yesterday, by the way; you need to have an agent to break down the door) are not going to fit into the blockbuster category.

                          Publishers break down books thusly: frontlist, midlist, backlist. Frontlist are the books publishers pay Borders and B&N good money to have displayed on their front tables as you walk in. Yes, they pay for that privilege. Years ago one of my novels was awarded the Barnes & Noble Discover Award. This meant that B&N would prominently display said book in their windows, by the registers, etc.

                          I asked my editor if this meant any money to me. She laughed, and said, "When they awarded it we had to kick in co-op money for the displays."

                          Okay, so... Frontlist: these are the big commercial movers. These can have print-runs in the millions, and sometimes they'll sell out that first printing. And sometimes they just gather dust and end the writer's career for now.

                          A year later they come out in mass-market paperback and are displayed in your CVS or WalMart.

                          Midlist: where we all live. Where 99% of all novelists end up. Not a bad place to be. Lots of bestsellers have come out of the midlist. These books are not automatic locks for paperback reprinting. They're not automatic locks for translation sales, either. They come, they go, they disappear.

                          Backlist: once upon a time publishers kept books in print for years and years. In hardback and paperback. I remember going to the beautiful Scribners Bookshop on 5th Avenue when I was a kid, and finding copies of Hemingway's novels--all of them--in splendid hardback editions.

                          There is no more backlist.

                          So what's the competition like? Editors are looking for novels that are not only beautifully-written but are compelling reads. This doesn't mean the story has to be in a genre such as the sleep-depriving horror category or the thriller that keeps you up reading all night. It can be a novel by Philip Roth or Roberto Bolaño or Edna O'Brien. A novel that will be talked about, recommended, urged on other people, and those these three writers (chosen at random) are (or were, in the case of Bolaño) distinguished, established writers, it's what they do or did so well that attracts editors to new fiction. It took them years to build a fan-base, and those readers stuck with them for title after title.

                          Now let's look at the economics of publishing fiction. To produce an initial print-ruin of, say 7500 books (yes, that will be the the most your publisher will print, unless you've written something that's getting huge advance buzz), costs less than Julia Robert's wardrobe for her latest movie.

                          Okay, so the publisher offers you a contract, your agent negotiates a little, and you sign on the dotted line. The going advance against royalties these days for a first novel is somewhere between $5,000-10,000. That's it. You get half on signing, the rest when the book comes out.

                          Now, you ask, how does the publisher promote your book, because without promotion, what's the point? Publishers don't promote books anymore. Oh, sure, Dan Brown gets the 90-piece orchestra, but you'd be lucky to get a kazoo solo. I know a writer who has been on the NY Times bestseller list for his nonfiction books, but whose novel was released this year with zero promotion. No ads, no tour, no interviews lined up, nothing. The book was dead on arrival.

                          This is the case with, say, 89% of all fiction published these days.

                          Rantanplan brought up the really polished writers working in genre, and I agree with her, there are writers such as Ian Rankin in Scotland and a whole raft of superb Scandinavian writers who work solely in the mystery and thriller genre, whose works far better reflect the states of their societies than their mainstream equivalents, but who are routinely relegated to the ghetto of genre. That is changing, and it will change. In France, the roman noir, the detective story or thriller, has been a mainstay of literature, not genre fiction.

                          Ulysses, you have to be bloody good. And if you're not a terrific stylist with a compelling story to tell, if you're as poor a writer as, say, Dan Brown clearly is, you'd better have a story that people will buy hook, line and sinker, that they'll believe is true, that they'll spend their good money on over and over again, because publishers also know--and, boy, do they ever--that there's one born every minute and that one will buy the latest blockbuster that, fifty years from now, will be utterly forgotten.

                          I should add this: publishers are not looking for one-book wonders. They want career writers, as do agents. They want writers who are in this for the long-haul. This is one of the major considerations that come into the decision process when a manuscript arrives on their desk (or, these days, Sony Reader). I've been dealing with publishers, editors and agents for thirty years, and, really, that's the one thing that hasn't changed in all that time.

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                          • #28
                            Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                            Interesting read.

                            Has anyone around these parts considered the self - publishing route ? Experiences/thoughts ?

                            With fairly new print on demand tech, digital printing, what are the possibilties here ... such as reducing the risk, & books left over from unsold print runs ?

                            Jake -- how about print-on-demand generally , is this process a significant part of the fiction market these days, or largely left to academics, or specialist works ?
                            Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                            • #29
                              Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                              Originally posted by kidcharlemagne View Post
                              Magicman took a year off to write a thriller novel (his first) and bagged a 3 book deal. He wrote a thriller, hence my question earlier in the thread. Like specs there are certain genres in publishing that will increase your chances of bagging a deal and thrillers seem to be at the top of the list although I've heard that romance is selling well. Personally I have no interest in writing genre books but genre seems to be where the deals are.

                              Jake--by very, very good do you mean the quality of the prose because I can't imagine that you have to write like Proust if you are writing an airport block buster? If it is lit fiction then yes, I can imagine that you need to be extremely good to stand out form the crowd but with thrillers you need to write a great page turner and from Magicman's experience it seems his years of screenwriting served him well in writing a thriller since he was practised in writing fast moving narrative.
                              Whoops, forgot to answer this in my post. Genre fiction does well because its fan base (and let's remember that even such a great poet as T.S. Eliot was a great reader of mysteries, so the fan base is wide and varied) tends to stick to its favorite genre. Thriller readers buy thrillers, and are always interested in new voices.

                              My point is that to break into, say, the thriller, detective or mystery genres, you have to be a damned skillful writer and you have to have a whole new take on the genre. Ian Rankin introduced us to the detective Rebus, whom millions could identify with. And though you read his stories with more or less minimal interest in who did what and why, you read because you like Rebus and you want to see the world through his eyes. This was something quite new when Rankin introduced him.

                              Tom Rob Smith, an English writer, recently started a series with a detective in Stalinist Russia. That's new.

                              So that just another Bourne knock-off really would have to be extraordinary to break out. But give us something new, write it at least capably and well, and you have a shot. A long shot, but a shot nonetheless.

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                              • #30
                                Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                                Originally posted by The Road Warrior View Post
                                Interesting read.

                                Has anyone around these parts considered the self - publishing route ? Experiences/thoughts ?

                                With fairly new print on demand tech, digital printing, what are the possibilties here ... such as reducing the risk, & books left over from unsold print runs ?

                                Jake -- how about print-on-demand generally , is this process a significant part of the fiction market these days, or largely left to academics, or specialist works ?
                                Vanity publishing (which is what self-publishing used to be called until they cleansed it of the negative connotation) is fine if you're an old person who wants to write a little memoir to give out to family members. I've done readings and given talks, and there's always a granny in the audience who shows me her book. It's not for sale, and she's rightly proud of this. She's left something behind for her loved ones.

                                Vanity publishing is inherently problematic, in that you're not being chosen out of a pile of other submissions, you're paying to be among the pile. It costs you money, which is not what publishing is all about, wherein they pay you money.

                                And although these days Amazon sells anything between two covers, published by Viking, Jonathan Cape or Joe Schmo Books, your book will not make it much beyond your local neighborhood bookshop, which will stock a few copies to keep the peace. Ideally an author wants his or her book in every bloody bookshop in the universe, and self-publishing won't promote your book or distribute it.

                                Now in the music world things are quite the opposite. In a way, do-it-yourself is how you get your name out there. A song can be heard, assessed and downloaded in under five minutes. Viral marketing can get it a fanbase, and eventually even--maybe--a signing with a record label.

                                But with books this simply is the very rarest thing. It happens, but the risk will cost you money and a lot of dashed hopes.

                                Steer clear of vanity presses; a self-published book proclaims its failure with wiser, more established publishers.

                                Sorry, but that's the brutal truth.

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