How fast things change...when you're published

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  • #31
    Re: How fast things change...when you're published

    Many thanks Jake for taking the time to set out that answer. And for the above posts in general.

    Always a pleasure to read your take.
    Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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    • #32
      Re: How fast things change...when you're published

      Originally posted by nic.h View Post
      And Dan Brown, too. John Grisham could also slip into that list.

      There will always be aberrations but, frankly, if you have something that original and know your market that well, then you'll be fine. These books are high concept in its truest sense. Not many books are.

      What Jake is talking about is the rest of us. That might not be you, but it probably is.


      (One can't help but imagine what it would be like if they had those same page turning stories AND wrote beautiful prose...)
      Yeah, but they're there. There is always them and then the rest of us. You just hope you can be one of THEM, and good at it. Otherwise there is no point in doing it.

      Anyone who says they'd rather eat ketchup soup and struggle, then be an overnight sensation is a liar. And people who say you have to struggle to make it, well... misery loves company.

      I met this man when I was a kid. He used to go to the restaurant my dad was a waiter at. My dad told me he was a writer. I was ten years old, it didn't mean anything to me. He even had a movie made of one of his books ( he practical gave it away to the producer). He struggled financially his whole career. When he died broke, all of a sudden he got WAYYYY more popular and everyone was bowing at his feet.

      His name was Nelson Algren.
      Last edited by Landis26; 08-22-2009, 08:04 AM.

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      • #33
        Re: How fast things change...when you're published

        Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
        Vanity publishing (which is what self-publishing used to be called until they cleansed it of the negative connotation) is fine if you're an old person who wants to write a little memoir to give out to family members. I've done readings and given talks, and there's always a granny in the audience who shows me her book. It's not for sale, and she's rightly proud of this. She's left something behind for her loved ones.

        Vanity publishing is inherently problematic, in that you're not being chosen out of a pile of other submissions, you're paying to be among the pile. It costs you money, which is not what publishing is all about, wherein they pay you money.

        And although these days Amazon sells anything between two covers, published by Viking, Jonathan Cape or Joe Schmo Books, your book will not make it much beyond your local neighborhood bookshop, which will stock a few copies to keep the peace. Ideally an author wants his or her book in every bloody bookshop in the universe, and self-publishing won't promote your book or distribute it.

        Now in the music world things are quite the opposite. In a way, do-it-yourself is how you get your name out there. A song can be heard, assessed and downloaded in under five minutes. Viral marketing can get it a fanbase, and eventually even--maybe--a signing with a record label.

        But with books this simply is the very rarest thing. It happens, but the risk will cost you money and a lot of dashed hopes.

        Steer clear of vanity presses; a self-published book proclaims its failure with wiser, more established publishers.

        Sorry, but that's the brutal truth.

        ... and "print-on-demand", any issues concerning the way this is changing the industry, is it having an effect vis-a-vis the cats. of fiction you listed earlier ... ?
        Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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        • #34
          Re: How fast things change...when you're published

          Don't forget the indie filmmaker Jake People who max out their credit cards making a film nobody in the industry would touch are celebrated and admired, and entire festivals are built around their work, whereas the novelist who tries to do the same is reviled and scorned and basically considered a loser...

          You could argue that the average indie film is probably just as crappy as the average non published novel, but the minute you have to hire a crew and cast actors and rent equipment and find locations et al, you are somehow "legitimate" and seen as a revolutionary going agaisnt the system to stay true to your voice.

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          • #35
            Re: How fast things change...when you're published

            Okay, I'm back from the movies and I'll take these on. Landis, I understand where you're coming from, but in the writing world--in the universe of the professional novelist--this yearning to be Dan Brown really doesn't exist. The vast majority of published novelists are midlist authors: writers whose books really don't fall into a genre category. We may touch upon a genre convention now and again, but we're not there, nor do we wish to be there.

            I'll tell you why: to be Dan Brown means you're a very wealthy, very lousy writer. In all my years of writing and being around writers I've never once heard one say, "Hell, I'd rather be a lousy writer and earn millions than write the way I want to and make thousands."

            The Dan Browns in this world have their category. And, sure, we'd love to make some good money. But it's hard to write badly, to be honest with you. And to sign your name to a book that's hugely profitable but artistically inept is really not something I, or the writers I know, really desire.

            There are some wonderful thriller writers out there, and they exist in a universe that's not ours, just as the "Chick Lit" authors have their own niche. We all live in parallel universes, and happily so. But these blockbuster authors have a function: they earn the publisher the money they need to publish our books.

            Rantanplan, I'm strictly limiting my discussion here to novelists, as the film industry is very, very different. But you make a great point that can't be disputed.

            Mr. Warrior: print-on-demand is actually a nifty notion. If it became more widely used, publishers would no longer have to warehouse their stock. That's the plus side. Faber & Faber in the UK, a venerable old publishing house, now has a POD for its long out-of-print titles. You buy a copy, it's printed out and they send it to you. Great idea.

            Also, as nearly all books go out of print, and a lot earlier than they used to, organizations such as the Authors Guild (of which I'm a member) offers a POD service for its members. This is fine, as these titles have been in print, have been reviewed, and this have already received the stamp of approval, so to speak. Like most midlist authors, my titles are out of print and available through the usual online outlets. But there is a good chance that in the future a publisher will relicense these works (whose rights have reverted entirely to me) and bring them out as a uniform paperback edition. So I'm waiting.

            But for an unknown author it carries the stigma of vanity publishing. If one's goal is simply to see one's title between nicely-printed covers, then this is one way to go. But to see it professionally published, to work with an editor, to approve the jacket design, to get the interviews, to do the readings, to see your book with the Viking or Random House or Knopf or Holt imprint on it, well, you have to submit it through an agent and take your chances.

            Let me add this: to be able to write BOTH screenplays and novels is very, very difficult. These require two very different though-processes, and it's something you have to more or less do from the start, as I did. I can work on a script in the morning and go back to my novel in the afternoon. But to shift from screenwriting to novel-writing isn't as easy as it may sound in theory.

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            • #36
              Re: How fast things change...when you're published

              yes, Jake, I bought two books over last two years that are print-on- demand (pod), titles, one is a very technical book, legal, and the other which I believe is pod, states at the top of the 'rights' page:-

              this book has been printed digitally and produced in a standard specification in order to ensure its continuing availability ...

              ...2008

              It's an OUP book, so again, non - fiction, but I get the impression, or a hunch, from this statement that they've recognised that the digital aspect is not simply a case of holding the work on a datafile, but in addition by set - up recognises that when it's time print a run off a new batch, or a one - off book, or a large print run even in 10 years time after a new edition is released-- that by standardising fonts, jacket, paper size and other aspects in such a way .... any printer/publisher can handle the job with ease.

              ... there's not an awkward compatibility, or other issues where excessive cost militates against it... but perhaps I've completely misread/misunderstood that pithy remark... but it raises interesting possibilities for novelists ... imho, eventually ... there's the potential to request a print as a wholesaler, or customer, perhaps onnly in a "standard bland cover", and da - dum, Jake Shuster, The Cry of the Eagle, is rolling off a press and on its way ... 10, 20, 30 years after its first publication.

              That's probably why I specifically asked about fiction earlier, any changes you are seeing, as new economic models/processes catch on, resistance to change slowing these things down in many industries. It's such a time of change.

              But as you highlighted, those premier - brand publishing houses have to set up the best 'look' for any fiction book, at least on its initial release, lots of possibilities, and good to hear your own writings may be available one day c/o pod.
              Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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              • #37
                Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                Mine probably won't be POD. I'll negotiate for paperback reprints with a mainstream publisher.

                Unless all editorial staffs will be abolished, there'll still be the need for the selection process that every writer has to go through.

                I'd like to expand a bit on the editor's function. If a book is somehow sent cold, i.e. without an agent--a rare occasion these days--it's typically read by an editorial assistant, usually a college graduate with an English degree. If it's sent by an agent it goes to a top editor.

                Very often, the contract will be contingent upon further work done on the book. In the case of my first novel, my editor in London asked for a new ending that made sense (don't ask!), and I came up with one on the spot. That saved my as$. Or you'll be issued a contract and then over a period of time negotiate the changes your editor's seeking.

                A seasoned author will make trades: "I'll take that section away if you let me leave the other one."

                Once the manuscript is edited it's sent to a copyeditor. Then you get to correct the galleys.

                It used to be that editors had long careers at publishing houses. No longer. Though the author, it is hoped, will be there a long, long time (for instance, John Updike was at Knopf for his entire career, and never used an agent), you may go through a handful of editors in your time there.

                And typically we move from house to house. I've had a total of four different US houses (I'm not including UK or Japan) for my five books, as my last two came out from Viking. But with two different editors.

                Being a novelist is a kind of commitment. And agents very much like to deal with writers who are in it for the count.

                But the POD concept, if it simply skips the necessary accessory functions of editor and marketing, really won't be of use to the professional, save to bring out-of-print titles not back into circulation, but at least to a kind of half-life.

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                • #38
                  Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                  Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
                  Let me add this: to be able to write BOTH screenplays and novels is very, very difficult. These require two very different though-processes, and it's something you have to more or less do from the start, as I did. I can work on a script in the morning and go back to my novel in the afternoon. But to shift from screenwriting to novel-writing isn't as easy as it may sound in theory.
                  I'm sure you're speaking from your own personal experiences. Many television and screenwriters have gone on to be novelists, and many are doing it today. Successfully.

                  And I was under the impression that all fictional works of a certain length are considered novels. You speak of genre writers as if they're doing something other than what you're doing. The tone comes off as a tad condescending.

                  People who write literary fiction often turn their nose up at genre fiction (nothing personal, I don't know what you write).

                  You say that most published novelists don't fall into a genre category, but don't romance novels far and away outsell all other categories, followed by thrillers?

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                  • #39
                    Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                    yes, with you.

                    I occasionally dip into a book you may have or have probably seen, so many out there !

                    -- The Book Publishing Industry by Albert N. Greco.

                    Covers the whole of American publishing trends from '67 onwards, statistic heavy, but very useful, and full of explanations about industry practices and how they've changed. Everything is covered. There are other books of course for our side of the pond.

                    Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                      Not condescending at all (as evidence by my earlier posts here). But fiction publishing is about categories. Thrillers and romances are not grouped with midlist, "literary" fiction. They're different editorial departments. So that a publisher publishes novels, yes, but they're always separated out into categories.

                      Even the mystery genre has its subcategories: "cozies", "whodunnits", etc.

                      Next time you go to a bookshop look at the back of a trade paperback. You'll see the category listed on the upper left corner. That's for sorting and shelving purposes.

                      Sure, lots of screenwriters also write novels. That doesn't mean it's easy. For me, writing has been and remains my day-job: six-to-nine hours a day, six days a week. I produce novels, develop scripts and occasionally write specs. That takes time and, as I said, different skills.

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                      • #41
                        Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                        Originally posted by The Road Warrior View Post
                        yes, with you.

                        I occasionally dip into a book you may have or have probably seen, so many out there !

                        -- The Book Publishing Industry by Albert N. Greco.

                        Covers the whole of American publishing trends from '67 onwards, statistic heavy, but very useful, and full of explanations about industry practices and how they've changed. Everything is covered. There are other books of course for our side of the pond.

                        As you know, I got my start as a published writer on your side of the ocean, RW, and I was with the oldest publishing house in private hands: founded in 1788 and still a family business. It was very much a gentleman's trade back then.

                        Now, alas, British publishing has gone the way of American publishing, as you well know when you stroll through the book department of W.H. Smith's.

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                        • #42
                          Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                          Do you consider a work of genre fiction, say a 75000 word science fiction piece, to be a novel?

                          You claimed that "The vast majority of published novelists are midlist authors: writers whose books really don't fall into a genre category." If you don't consider genre writers to be novelists, then I understand what you're saying. Otherwise, I'm confused.

                          And to suggest that being both a screenwriter and a novelist is "...something you have to more or less do from the start, as I did" is said with some authority, but I don't see how you can possibly back that up. Screenwriters bring a unique skillset to novel writing, and though it is difficult to transition as there are a whole new set of skills to master, it's hardly rocket science.

                          A talented writer can tell a story in any medium.

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                          • #43
                            Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                            Originally posted by dgl View Post
                            Do you consider a work of genre fiction, say a 75000 word science fiction piece, to be a novel?

                            You claimed that "The vast majority of published novelists are midlist authors: writers whose books really don't fall into a genre category." If you don't consider genre writers to be novelists, then I understand what you're saying. Otherwise, I'm confused.

                            And to suggest that being both a screenwriter and a novelist is "...something you have to more or less do from the start, as I did" is said with some authority, but I don't see how you can possibly back that up. Screenwriters bring a unique skillset to novel writing, and though it is difficult to transition as there are a whole new set of skills to master, it's hardly rocket science.

                            A talented writer can tell a story in any medium.
                            First of all, a talented writer can no more tell a story "in any medium" than a surgeon can perform all surgeries with equal skill.

                            Screenwriting and novel-writing share certain narrative skills, but are two very different types of writing.

                            You seem to be hung on the word "novel". A novel is defined as an extended prose work (Henry Green, the great English novelist, called it "a long intimacy between strangers") of anywhere from 60,000-words on up.

                            But in terms of publishing--which is what this is all about, after all--a novel is not just a novel, just as you wouldn't walk into a restaurant and order simply "meat". Publishers are in the business of satisfying all kinds of tastes. Hence the need for categories. They're all novels, for God's sake, but they're marketed differently, their audiences are widely divergent, and even the editing is marked by a different approach.
                            Last edited by Jake Schuster; 08-22-2009, 11:18 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                              Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
                              As you know, I got my start as a published writer on your side of the ocean, RW, and I was with the oldest publishing house in private hands: founded in 1788 and still a family business. It was very much a gentleman's trade back then.

                              Now, alas, British publishing has gone the way of American publishing, as you well know when you stroll through the book department of W.H. Smith's.

                              Oh yes, you've seen the good ole days, as we've discussed before, when it was still "damn hard" to break in I'm sure, but it must have felt better to be a part of the industry back then ?

                              Personally, I get the impression that it may take 10- 15 years for a novelist to break in now, if ever. I come across figures and stories like that all the time, the latest being in the 2008/9 edition of The Artist and Writers' Yearbook. One novel written per year, constant sustained slog. This novelist, well, she'd spent close to 20 years writing, until first publication, but that was also by - design, she wanted that level of proficiency, mastery of language etc, and had brought up a family as well.

                              I wrote a fairly long draft last year, perhaps 500 pages in "if published terms", however, one encouraging aspect to this is that novel writing, at least from my own experience (and this is all highly individualistic I'm sure) led to a better understanding and practice of screenwriting.

                              At first, after the draft of the novel was put to one side, and I'd picked up scripts again, I was stumped for around two weeks, I had to re - learn the way of the script, shall we say. (If I'd ever learned it at all previously !!). So, I fully appreciate the switch-over aspect. The contrast between the two is beneficial though, imho. Black contrasted against white. Yellow against orange ... things show up ! And it's fascinating, at least for me it was. However my novel was from an area or on a theme I knew extremely well, so I was very confident.

                              I read the genre novel THE ICE HARVEST recently, white noir, and watched the film -- in the dvd extras, one of the producers questions the author, 'lean script etc', author replies ... 'well you see, before I wrote novels I used to write screenplays ...'
                              The reply - '... that makes sense, this is why it's such a controlled and tight narrative work ...' or words to that effect. An interesting example. By chance, on this topic, I spoke to David Morrell last year, the thriller genre writer and author of FIRST BLOOD et al: he discusses the same thing in his book 'What I've Learned from a Lifetime of Writing'. I believe that's the title, or damn close.

                              After a 30 year career, in a chapter devoted entirely to Hwood, he says that sometimes HW does not like novelists to write the script version of their own book. He says, inter alia, 'I understand this, as authors are multi -sensual, the brain is wired through repeat training, in a completely different way ... not really trying to pick up on the prejudice aspect, but it's interesting, as clearly he's seen this, or even experienced it himself. Therefore if you are going to write both, it sounds as though for some writers it may not work, or if at all possible, the best approach is to run both side by side, or simply stick to one, again, thinking out loud here ... rushing.

                              ... I'll be optimistic and say, I think anything is possible ! Well, as long as you write for 18 hours a day.

                              Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                              • #45
                                Re: How fast things change...when you're published

                                Originally posted by Jake Schuster View Post
                                First of all, a talented writer can no more tell a story "in any medium" than a surgeon can perform all surgeries with equal skill.
                                A bit of a ridiculous analogy, but okay. To get back to your assertion that one pretty much has to start writing novels and screenplays at the same time or they're SOL -- a surgeon doesn't become proficient in brain/spinal surgery at the same time as cardiovascular surgery. He/She first becomes a general surgeon, and applies the skills honed over several years to more delicate and specialized procedures.

                                Using music as an analogy, is it better to learn the oboe and the piano at the same time, or master one before moving on to the next? And with languages, is it far easier to learn Spanish after French, Italian, Latin, or even German?

                                Yes.

                                Plays, comic books/graphic novels, novels, genre fiction, screenplays, teleplays, video games, internet, are all related and share many of the same skillsets. Writers today are being pushed to adapt their storytelling for various other media. Those who can't will become the writers of the past rather than the writers of the future.

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