A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

    Returning to the original article...

    This is something I've observed within my own family. My wife is one of four girls. She got a first in Physiology/Pharmacology, has since gone on to have an amazing career. Her parents couldn't care less. Seriously. It's amazing how disinterested they are. But when one of her sisters - all of whom are stay-at-home mums - has another baby? Jesus, it's like the Second Coming.

    Interestingly, we have two girls. And when we show said parents (so our girls' grandparents) their amazing school reports, there's the same lukewarm response. And yet they were quick to tell us of their grandson getting a special certificate awarded for not getting in trouble all term.

    But here's the thing - on reviewing our girls' reports, the granddad said 'Well, I'd expect nothing less.' And once they'd gone, my wife said that was all she heard growing up - of course you got straight As, I'd expect you to. But when a boy gets a certificate for not being an *******, he gets praise.

    Ho hum. You do what you can. As for the 'like a girl' thing, the corollary is 'boys will be boys' which is something I'd happily see erased from human existence. I've seen appalling behaviour - behaviour you'd never, ever accept from girls - being excused with this phrase. And then 15 years down the line people are scratching their heads at rape culture and saying Wow, how did these guys get like this? Drives me insane.

    Anyway. Apologies if I kinda wandered off topic there.
    My stuff

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

      Anecdotal evidence is fine if it has something to do with the original topic as clearly stated by the OP. Simply saying, "All the doctors in the emergency room were women," does not "prove" these women have the confidence to go after every opportunity that comes their way; to go after supervisory or department head positions; to climb the ladder and take on the naysayers when she comes up against any glass ceiling she may encounter.

      In the link I posted at the end of my second post in this thread it talks about women emerging from top-notch schools with all the grades and credentials required to go after high level positions, yet they don't.

      This is the topic. We know women can write. We know women can write screenplays. The topic is why don't more women have the confidence to tackle the hard road, with all the inherent rejections along the way, to succeed in the film industry. The OP offered an answer. Me and Emily expounded on it.

      Of course, I see that me posting the issue about math/science grades allowed Manchester to parse that bit, then offer his anecdotal emergency room evidence, and therefore negate everything else offered by those discussing the topic.

      This also happens a lot in these discussions. The spirit of the topic gets derailed to focus on some hair-splitting. That's why I personally chose to ignore Manchester. I give Emily credit for trying.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

        Originally posted by Jon Jay View Post
        Returning to the original article...

        This is something I've observed within my own family. My wife is one of four girls. She got a first in Physiology/Pharmacology, has since gone on to have an amazing career. Her parents couldn't care less. Seriously. It's amazing how disinterested they are. But when one of her sisters - all of whom are stay-at-home mums - has another baby? Jesus, it's like the Second Coming.

        Interestingly, we have two girls. And when we show said parents (so our girls' grandparents) their amazing school reports, there's the same lukewarm response. And yet they were quick to tell us of their grandson getting a special certificate awarded for not getting in trouble all term.

        But here's the thing - on reviewing our girls' reports, the granddad said 'Well, I'd expect nothing less.' And once they'd gone, my wife said that was all she heard growing up - of course you got straight As, I'd expect you to. But when a boy gets a certificate for not being an *******, he gets praise.

        Ho hum. You do what you can. As for the 'like a girl' thing, the corollary is 'boys will be boys' which is something I'd happily see erased from human existence. I've seen appalling behaviour - behaviour you'd never, ever accept from girls - being excused with this phrase. And then 15 years down the line people are scratching their heads at rape culture and saying Wow, how did these guys get like this? Drives me insane.

        Anyway. Apologies if I kinda wandered off topic there.
        Jon -- You're actually on topic. This is what we're talking about. Thanks for your POV. Girls are "expected" to be good. "Sugar and spice and everything nice." Well, a woman can't maintain "nice" all the time when pursuing all goals. Someone has to lose for the woman to win. Someone has to be "wrong" for the woman to emerge as "right."

        Girls are taught not to hurt others' feelings. Girls are taught to secure consensus before making a decision. Girls are taught to compromise.This type of early training makes it very hard to compete for high level positions. They're not taught how to win and how to lose.

        I think boys learn from sports how to better handle winning and losing. How to be a gracious winner. How to take down an opponent with honor. And how not to feel degraded when they do lose and live to fight another day.

        Girls who don't participate in sports lose that ability to see competition for what it is. I haven't done deep research but I will when I have time. However, I always check the bios of high-powered women in top positions. More often than not they had experience in some sort of sport during their school and college years.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

          The study cited in the OP's linked article was done in... the 1980s. Thirty years ago.

          And as for the "complex" problem that was presented to fifth-grade boys and girls - to see who persevered and who didn't - there is no mention in that linked article as to what kind of problem it was. For example: A physical puzzle entailing complex spatial relationships, or a written story entailing complex personal relationships? That sort of detail - as a matter of analysis of research studies - is significant, yet it's missing.

          The world that fifth-grade boys and girls grew up in in the 1980s ain't the same as what today's fifth-grade boys and girls have grown up in. Women role models, methods of teaching, subjects taught, diversity in the classroom, sensitivity to issues of sexism and racism, and all sorts of other things have changed enormously. I'm startled that someone wrote an article in 2011, on this sort of topic, based on 30-year-old research. If the study had been focused on immutable matters of genetics, then a gap of 30 years ain't a problem. But when focusing on societal issues, 30 years in America on this sort of topic is huge.

          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
          We know women can write. ... Me and ***** expounded on it.
          Next.

          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
          Of course, I see that me posting the issue about math/science grades allowed Manchester to parse that bit, then offer his anecdotal emergency room evidence, and therefore negate everything else offered by those discussing the topic.
          Wow, that trope of yours. Every time someone posts something you don't like, you claim the poster is trying to "negate everything else offered by those discussing the topic." I suppose if I mentioned that Einstein, while working in the Patent Office, once misfiled an application, you'd claim I was attempting to negate his theory of relativity.

          Next.

          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
          Anecdotal evidence is fine if it has something to do with the original topic as clearly stated by the OP.
          So, sc111, you took me to task for mentioning that I recently spent time at an ER and most of the doctors there were women. Now, the context of that in my post was: Almost all of the nurses were women... Yet, no one seems to take high dudgeon at that disparity. And then, as a tag-on, I mentioned that most of the doctors were women, too.

          Anyway, you said that was off topic.

          Gee, the subject line of this thread ends with: "Where are the women?" I mentioned that some of them are in the ER, working as doctors - the vast majority of the doctors working that 8AM - 8PM shift. Yet, according to you, that answer of mine was OT.

          In any event, I find that big-city evidence which you dismiss as "anecdotal" as being more meaningful than one 30-year-old study of fifth-graders.
          ____

          I don't know the gender of most of the people who post here, unless it's manifest from the poster's DDP name. And I have the avatars turned off (though, even there, I understand that at least one poster with a female avatar was/is actually a male). Even when someone here self-reports as being a guy/gal, black/white, this/that religion... I usually don't retain that info. I reply to posts, not to race/gender/religion of posters. But if anyone wants to think I do reply based on a poster's race/gender/religion, then so it goes.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

            Originally posted by CthulhuRises View Post
            But...there are certain fields where men are "underrepresented." So are you okay with that? The truth is, not every profession is going to have an exact proportional representation of the human population...
            We're talking about screenwriting and directing and Hollywood. Which might sound flippant to people who are either not in the industry or don't aspire to be, but Hollywood and our entire culture are intertwined, so I think it's important.

            There's no reason to be contrarian or insecure about this. Acknowledging a problem exists in one area does not diminish the importance of problems in other areas. Saying yes, women have a challenge here and let's discuss it, does not mean no, men don't have challenges elsewhere. Right now we just happen to be talking about women in screenwriting (and I would add directing), in the Business Questions and Advice section of a screenwriting message board.

            In reality, any person should be and feel free to pursue whatever he or she wants to pursue. But sometimes those people are women who, for whatever reason/s (which we like to theorize about, eh?), don't feel free to pursue certain things. In this case it looked like maybe that could sometimes be because girls aren't told to keep trying. And if that's the case, we can do something about that in a concrete manner instead of yammering on a message board. We can even just start with being aware. That's all I wanted to share.
            "You have idea 1, you're excited. It flops. You have idea 99, you're excited. It flops.
            Only a fool is excited by the 100th idea. Fools keep trying. God rewards fools." --Martin Hellman, paraphrased

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

              I don't know why people keep starting these threads. Why don't they just have one called "Manchester explains women to everyone?"

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                I was going to argue with SC again, but I can't. And the reason I can't is because of the posts by Manchester and CthulhuRising.

                My apologies. I was wrong and hopelessly naive.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                  Actually, I can't leave it at that.

                  Cthulhu's posts are a textbook example of not understanding what's being presented in this thread and it's useless to debate this with him.

                  Manchester, though I agree (I think) in principle with some of what he's saying, I do take issue with the "I was with you up until the comma."

                  It's clear what Emily's saying and any parsing of her response is just being dickish.

                  That's why I'm done with this thread 'cause the evidence in this thread speaks for itself.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                    Originally posted by CthulhuRises View Post
                    Now physicality aside, I think it's simply asinine to argue that women and men aren't inherently more attracted to certain things/ideas/professions. The female and male brain do work, to a degree, in different ways. That's science. Men, in general, are inherently better at certain things than women, just as women are inherently better at certain things than men.

                    Is it sexist that there's a paucity of female poker players? How about less glamorous jobs? Funny how I've never seen anyone (except on Parks & Recs) bemoan the dearth of female employees in professions that aren't as high-paying and/or desirable. Is it sexism keeping women out of the plumbing and sanitation industries?[/url]
                    Are you putting us on, or do you really believe this? You mean you have no awareness of how women have fought to get into traditionally male-dominated (and usually higher-paying) blue-collar jobs, trades, factory work, including the plumbing and sanitation industries which you must be implying are "dirty" jobs?

                    It's a short step from these kinds of statements to systemic discrimination that keeps women out of occupations for which they have talents and experience.

                    On film crews, many women are capable as gaffers, grips, 1st and 2nd ADs, etc. And I've known women cinematographers who are amazing but struggle with a lot of barriers to advance in the field.

                    It's not in their heads if they don't always succeed, and it may not be because they don't know how to be competitive (though I agree this is a problem for many women). They're driven to succeed in traditionally male-dominated fields that don't usually pave the way for them.

                    Just saw this article about the percentage of women on film crews and how the numbers apply to films directed by men and women: http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandh...years-20140723

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                      Originally posted by Richmond Weems View Post
                      Actually, I can't leave it at that.

                      Cthulhu's posts are a textbook example of not understanding what's being presented in this thread and it's useless to debate this with him.

                      Manchester, though I agree (I think) in principle with some of what he's saying, I do take issue with the "I was with you up until the comma."

                      It's clear what Emily's saying and any parsing of her response is just being dickish.

                      That's why I'm done with this thread 'cause the evidence in this thread speaks for itself.
                      Nice insight there, chief. Got to love the classic, "You're wrong so I'm not going to bother attempting to counter your argument" play. Your response is a textbook example of not being able to articulate one's opinions, thus relying on dismissing them outright without any merit or justification. That avatar must be a selfie.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                        Originally posted by castilleja32 View Post
                        Are you putting us on, or do you really believe this? You mean you have no awareness of how women have fought to get into traditionally male-dominated (and usually higher-paying) blue-collar jobs, trades, factory work, including the plumbing and sanitation industries which you must be implying are "dirty" jobs?

                        It's a short step from these kinds of statements to systemic discrimination that keeps women out of occupations for which they have talents and experience.

                        On film crews, many women are capable as gaffers, grips, 1st and 2nd ADs, etc. And I've known women cinematographers who are amazing but struggle with a lot of barriers to advance in the field.

                        It's not in their heads if they don't always succeed, and it may not be because they don't know how to be competitive (though I agree this is a problem for many women). They're driven to succeed in traditionally male-dominated fields that don't usually pave the way for them.

                        Just saw this article about the percentage of women on film crews and how the numbers apply to films directed by men and women: http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandh...years-20140723

                        Do I really believe what? That there are professions which men and women are naturally more inclined to be attracted to more than the other sex? Do you believe that grass is green?

                        You're telling me there's been an underground battle going on for women to get a fair shake in the sanitation industry? Hmm...would love to read an article in the Huffington Post on that one! Link me up.

                        My point was that some jobs are more appealing to men and some to women. How many women do you know that dream of being a plumber or working on an oil rig? Maybe...just maybe...it's not discrimination that explains the lack of female loggers, but rather less of a desire, on the whole, of women to enter said profession. Does that mean *every* man or *every* woman? No. Does that mean that barriers don't exist at all? No. I never said that. But to pretend as though there is discrimination *solely* on the basis of population percentages not lining up is, candidly, incredibly ignorant.

                        Explain why the % of Nicholl entrants, a contest with no barriers to enter, has twice (or more?) as many male entrants as female?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                          Originally posted by CthulhuRises View Post
                          Explain why the % of Nicholl entrants, a contest with no barriers to enter, has twice (or more?) as many male entrants as female?
                          That's kind of what we were supposed to be talking about. I am not being snarky; here are a few snippets that maybe got buried in the back-and-forth.

                          Somewhere along the line, what the article describes must kick in. Screenwriting certainly qualifies as a "complex" subject as described in the article.
                          Interestingly, writing is a skill you can work on almost completely in private without having others see your failures. The female writers are out there. But for a writer to succeed, she's got to get over the fear and put herself out there where public failure is also a possibility, and that's probably one of the major hangups. Judging by the covers on the magazines at the grocery store, plenty of grown women still spend a lot of time doing their best not to be ridiculed by others.
                          And then there's the great Sally Ride quote: "Young girls need to see role models in whatever careers they may choose, just so they can picture themselves doing those jobs someday. You can't be what you can't see."

                          That's maybe a different element of the overall underlying problem(s), however.

                          You say there is no barrier to entry; technically there is, and it's skill, and/or the notion that you've got it or that you can get there -- the gist of the article. If someone is convinced they're not good enough, they're not going to waste money entering contests, or time querying agents. They'll either quit or they'll keep practicing, waiting for a future day when they're finally "good enough," if they can ever convince themselves that day has arrived.

                          Days like today can happen -- not a Nicholl QF? Ouch. It hurts. I was hoping (like a lottery ticket buyer hopes) that I'd win and the Nicholl would save me from grad school. I can either (A) quit because I'm not good enough or (B) keep writing because I'm not good enough yet. The numbers suggest plenty of women choose option A, and the kid in me who got laughed at for not being able to run fast enough completely understands why.
                          "You have idea 1, you're excited. It flops. You have idea 99, you're excited. It flops.
                          Only a fool is excited by the 100th idea. Fools keep trying. God rewards fools." --Martin Hellman, paraphrased

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                            Originally posted by WaitForIt View Post
                            That's kind of what we were supposed to be talking about. I am not being snarky; here are a few snippets that maybe got buried in the back-and-forth.





                            And then there's the great Sally Ride quote: "Young girls need to see role models in whatever careers they may choose, just so they can picture themselves doing those jobs someday. You can't be what you can't see."

                            That's maybe a different element of the overall underlying problem(s), however.

                            You say there is no barrier to entry; technically there is, and it's skill, and/or the notion that you've got it or that you can get there -- the gist of the article. If someone is convinced they're not good enough, they're not going to waste money entering contests, or time querying agents. They'll either quit or they'll keep practicing, waiting for a future day when they're finally "good enough," if they can ever convince themselves that day has arrived.

                            Days like today can happen -- not a Nicholl QF? Ouch. It hurts. I was hoping (like a lottery ticket buyer hopes) that I'd win and the Nicholl would save me from grad school. I can either (A) quit because I'm not good enough or (B) keep writing because I'm not good enough yet. The numbers suggest plenty of women choose option A, and the kid in me who got laughed at for not being able to run fast enough completely understands why.

                            So you think less women are pursuing (though I'd love a consensus on the position which is being argued, because other times posters here have asserted it's not an issue of less women pursuing film, but simply more being "neglected") screenwriting/film because they've...been indoctrinated at a young age not to? Fear of failure? You think men don't fear failure? I fail to see how that's a gender specific concern. And if you truly think women are more apt to not do something simply because of "fear of failure," then I'd say you're the one propagating a sexist notion and not giving women much credit...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                              Originally posted by Manchester View Post
                              The study cited in the OP's linked article was done in... the 1980s. Thirty years ago. ...

                              The world that fifth-grade boys and girls grew up in in the 1980s ain't the same as what today's fifth-grade boys and girls have grown up in.
                              People who were fifth-graders 30 years ago are how old today? They're the adults of today's world. And then there are older generations.

                              So the study has relevance to the system that is perpetuated by today's adults.

                              And everyone has a chance to fight that system, however they identify.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                                Originally posted by Richmond Weems View Post

                                .... I have two daughters and though they may still end up peddling their asses on the corner and hitting the crack pipe, I'm pretty confident they won't. And I see it in their friends and the girls they hang out with. It very well may be that my ex and I made a conscious effort to instill in our kids a value of their self-worth (hell, both kids have better self-esteem than I do) or that we live in a neighborhood with excellent schools and strong women, but I'm absolutely confident that my kids will excel in whatever they want to do.

                                And when they enter the workforce, I'm absolutely confident they'll be change agents and will enter into a society that will have already elected a female president.

                                I also have no illusions that my "hope" is precisely because I'm a guy, but I am doing what I can to help my daughters understand that they do have an impact on the world, no matter how small, and that the most important thing is not to be the best woman they can be, but to be the best human being they can be.
                                I started to respond to this yesterday then I was called by a client and jammed with a rush job well into the evening.

                                I wanted to say you are a good Dad, Richmond, and doing a great job along with your ex. Good schools, neighbors, and the kids' friends are also a positive contributing factor. Stay vigilant against any counter-productive stuff that can possibly seep in.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X