Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

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  • Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

    Hi, everyone. This is probably a stupid question, and if its already been answered you can go ahead and direct me to the thread where that answer is located.

    I've been having to do a lot of thinking lately about the type of writing I do, and have come to realize that I much prefer writing something that can provide a lot of character development, something that seems to evade me when I do a feature script. As such, I've turned my attention towards writing for television.

    My question is this: if a pilot I were to write was picked up, produced, etc. all the way through to getting a greenlight on the series, what is the likelihood that I, a first-time writer, would be part of the staff writers regardless of the fact I came up with the pilot? Would I more likely be relegated to being a creative consultant of some kind?

    And please, don't say something like "Worry about that when you've got something." THere are some projects in my head I'd prefer to actually be part of the staff on, and if in the beginning I'm more likely to be a consultant than on-staff, I want to save those ideas for when I can actually be a part of it. If you're guaranteed a position on staff, even as a junior writer, for a series which you wrote the pilot for, then I guess any of those concerns are dismissed. But I can't seem to find any information on this topic. Maybe it's just something that is glaringly obvious and I'm missing that for some reason.

    Anyways, any confirmation or denial of the above would be great, especially from those with personal experience if there are any.

    Oh, and please note I'm referring to a pilot written by an unknown writer rather than established one in terms of the above questions.

  • #2
    Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

    As a first time writer if you create the show, more than likely you will be a co-executive producer. When they buy your project, they will lay out what your credit is, how much you will get paid per episode, what your back end looks like, what your pilot fees will be, what your credit will be in season 2 and if there is a raise, etc.
    https://twitter.com/#!/moviewriterJeff

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    • #3
      Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

      Originally posted by mrjonesprods View Post
      As a first time writer if you create the show, more than likely you will be a co-executive producer. When they buy your project, they will lay out what your credit is, how much you will get paid per episode, what your back end looks like, what your pilot fees will be, what your credit will be in season 2 and if there is a raise, etc.
      I don't think you can guarantee Co-EP. You might be Consulting. Or maybe just a Producer. If you wrote a pilot that got picked up, it means that someone responded to your VOICE and likely LIFE EXPERIENCE - and that's something they'll need on staff.

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      • #4
        Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

        Pretty sure the phrases "More than likely" and "Guarantee" are still pretty far apart in the English language far as I know.

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        • #5
          Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

          Originally posted by Alfred Parker View Post
          Pretty sure the phrases "More than likely" and "Guarantee" are still pretty far apart in the English language far as I know.
          Okay... I don't think it's "most likely" that a baby writer with no credits whatsoever will be a Co-EP. Not impossible, but not most likely.

          EDITED: Just to be a dick cause you were one, from Macmillan dictionary: "more than likely (=almost certain)." So no, it's not a "guarantee" but "almost certain" is not "pretty far apart" from "certain" (i.e. guaranteed).

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          • #6
            Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

            Huh. I guess, if the studio is only willing to offer co-ep and you agree to it, then that's what you'll get. I've more frequently seen that the creators get an EP credit, and then their day-to-day involvement settles itself out once the series gets greenlit.

            For example, on one series, the creator/writer of the pilot came into the room every day for a couple weeks, realized that the network-approved showrunner was taking things in a direction that didn't work for the creator, and stopped coming in. Still an EP, still getting payments for every episode.

            But I know of at least two projects where writers with essentially no produced credits got EP credits on their first series, and although they were given babysitters, when the babysitters didn't work out, the original writer stayed on as showrunner.

            I don't know if it's just that these folks -- and others I know -- had particularly good lawyers, but I think it's getting hard to strip a creator of an EP credit unless, as with "Lost," there's essentially nothing of your original idea in the finished project. In which case... well, that's probably for the best, right? (Of course, that would suck, but if they're not actually making your show, why would you want to be an EP on it? I mean, other than for the pile of money that would entail.)

            What your role on the show would be going forward, that's more in flux. You read about certain people being "banned" or "barred" from set or certain buildings, but generally, those are the exceptions to the rule. In my experience, it's much more common for a junior person to work in collaboration with an experienced team, gradually taking on more and more responsibility as they get the hang of things. I have witnessed two firing/takeovers and in both cases, they had to bring in outsiders because NO ONE was willing to push out the guy they'd been working with for the last six months. Loyalty is not as rare is you might think and TV writers in particular can be collaborative and supportive of each other in a way that makes me a little sniffly just thinking about it.

            You didn't ask, but my .002 is that the real test of whether you'll be happy in television is whether you can be happy working collaboratively with a writing staff, because television is almost impossible to execute well when only one person has any power**. If someone else comes up with the best idea you've ever heard, are you brave enough to admit that, and then use it, even though you didn't come up with it? If you can do that, then yes, you should pursue television projects.

            ** I know there are such shows, I just think they're infinitely more flawed than the other kind.

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            • #7
              Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

              @killertv -- I kindly suggest you look up the meaning of "almost" while you're scouring the dictionary.

              You gave bad info and in the process argued against Mr. Jones by using a word he didn't use. Semantics matter sometimes. Sorry if that offends you.

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              • #8
                Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                Originally posted by kpowers View Post
                Huh. I guess, if the studio is only willing to offer co-ep and you agree to it, then that's what you'll get. I've more frequently seen that the creators get an EP credit, and then their day-to-day involvement settles itself out once the series gets greenlit.

                For example, on one series, the creator/writer of the pilot came into the room every day for a couple weeks, realized that the network-approved showrunner was taking things in a direction that didn't work for the creator, and stopped coming in. Still an EP, still getting payments for every episode.

                But I know of at least two projects where writers with essentially no produced credits got EP credits on their first series, and although they were given babysitters, when the babysitters didn't work out, the original writer stayed on as showrunner.

                I don't know if it's just that these folks -- and others I know -- had particularly good lawyers, but I think it's getting hard to strip a creator of an EP credit unless, as with "Lost," there's essentially nothing of your original idea in the finished project. In which case... well, that's probably for the best, right? (Of course, that would suck, but if they're not actually making your show, why would you want to be an EP on it? I mean, other than for the pile of money that would entail.)

                What your role on the show would be going forward, that's more in flux. You read about certain people being "banned" or "barred" from set or certain buildings, but generally, those are the exceptions to the rule. In my experience, it's much more common for a junior person to work in collaboration with an experienced team, gradually taking on more and more responsibility as they get the hang of things. I have witnessed two firing/takeovers and in both cases, they had to bring in outsiders because NO ONE was willing to push out the guy they'd been working with for the last six months. Loyalty is not as rare is you might think and TV writers in particular can be collaborative and supportive of each other in a way that makes me a little sniffly just thinking about it.

                You didn't ask, but my .002 is that the real test of whether you'll be happy in television is whether you can be happy working collaboratively with a writing staff, because television is almost impossible to execute well when only one person has any power**. If someone else comes up with the best idea you've ever heard, are you brave enough to admit that, and then use it, even though you didn't come up with it? If you can do that, then yes, you should pursue television projects.

                ** I know there are such shows, I just think they're infinitely more flawed than the other kind.
                I guess I should've mentioned that regardless of how things turn out, I wouldn't mind working with a collaborative effort, especially in the beginning since I'm well-aware that a veteran TV writer could school me on almost every level. In truth, I wouldn't be surprised if there comes a point where I realize I'm much better off at coming up with the story concept and maybe the bible, such as key events in the series, but letting other, more experienced and capable writers handle how and when those nitty gritty details come into play.

                Once, I would have hated the idea of not having full control of my work and a film/TV series based around it. Nowadays, I don't mind the idea that someone might do it better. I would care if someone made it worse, but as you said, that normally occurs when they completely turn everything around and the end result isn't even close to your original idea.

                So in short, I would definitely be okay with working with other, more experienced writers, and if all I got in the beginning was a producer credit of some kind, I'd be fine with that. At least I'd be getting paid for an idea of mine, and at least I'd see some form of it be seen by people.

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                • #9
                  Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                  Originally posted by killertv View Post
                  Okay... I don't think it's "most likely" that a baby writer with no credits whatsoever will be a Co-EP. Not impossible, but not most likely.

                  EDITED: Just to be a dick cause you were one, from Macmillan dictionary: "more than likely (=almost certain)." So no, it's not a "guarantee" but "almost certain" is not "pretty far apart" from "certain" (i.e. guaranteed).
                  Of the 5 or so people I know without any credits whatsoever who have sold shows, they have all ended up getting Co-executive producer. And that's exactly what I got when I sold a show to ABC as well. In all of our cases, the studios starting point was co-ep... They didn't open negotiations with consulting producer or some lower credit - which also makes believe that is probably more common than not.

                  I'm basing my initial post on my real life experience and that of my friends. What are you basing your statements on?
                  https://twitter.com/#!/moviewriterJeff

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                    Originally posted by kpowers View Post
                    Huh. I guess, if the studio is only willing to offer co-ep and you agree to it, then that's what you'll get. I've more frequently seen that the creators get an EP credit, and then their day-to-day involvement settles itself out once the series gets greenlit.
                    A first timer without a quote is going to have a very difficult time getting an EP credit the first time out and the salary that goes with it. Maybe in season two or if it is not a network show.
                    https://twitter.com/#!/moviewriterJeff

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                      Mrjonesprods, I think you just hit on it -- all the less-proven writers I know who landed EP credits sold to non-network outlets -- HBO, Sundance, AMC, Cinemax. They also had production partners who were fierce advocates, so that may have been a factor. And my sample is hardly statistically neutral, so just because I only know folks who were EPs on their own shows, that doesn't say anything about how all new writers fare. Even Whitney Cummings was only EP on her self-titled series; she's just creator on 2 Broke Girls.

                      Which reminds me: Jonathan_Bentz, as long as we're talking about your hypothetical future success, I would avoid working with a broadcast network unless it really is your only option. The combination of factors that have to line up perfectly to ensure any degree of creative control is so daunting that, frankly you would be better off just buying lottery tickets and then using the winnings to make your own show. (Yes, I know how unlikely that is. I feel like that's a fair approximation of the odds.)

                      If you really do love character development, then be aware that a lot of the most profoundly character-driven shows build their stories brick-by-brick, every morning asking, "Where is X's head at?" and then exploring the options that suggest themselves, and the showrunners generally are in the room 95% of the time, helping that process along. And yes, it takes for fvcking ever, but the results are impressive. On shows like this, bibles are reference tools, written after each episode airs, tracking the events that happened and the characters that appeared. The showrunners I've worked with are reluctant to spin a five year -- or even two year -- plan, because they don't want to be held to it if they start down that road and find it's not gelling as a story.

                      On the other hand, more procedural shows will tread character water for months at a time, and then have a Very Special Episode where something major happens, but the attention to character is very much secondary. (All this assumes your interest is in hour-long drama, because honestly, if you love being funny, why *wouldn't* you be in the room all day, every day?)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                        Originally posted by kpowers View Post
                        Mrjonesprods, I think you just hit on it -- all the less-proven writers I know who landed EP credits sold to non-network outlets -- HBO, Sundance, AMC, Cinemax. They also had production partners who were fierce advocates, so that may have been a factor. And my sample is hardly statistically neutral, so just because I only know folks who were EPs on their own shows, that doesn't say anything about how all new writers fare. Even Whitney Cummings was only EP on her self-titled series; she's just creator on 2 Broke Girls.

                        Which reminds me: Jonathan_Bentz, as long as we're talking about your hypothetical future success, I would avoid working with a broadcast network unless it really is your only option. The combination of factors that have to line up perfectly to ensure any degree of creative control is so daunting that, frankly you would be better off just buying lottery tickets and then using the winnings to make your own show. (Yes, I know how unlikely that is. I feel like that's a fair approximation of the odds.)

                        If you really do love character development, then be aware that a lot of the most profoundly character-driven shows build their stories brick-by-brick, every morning asking, "Where is X's head at?" and then exploring the options that suggest themselves, and the showrunners generally are in the room 95% of the time, helping that process along. And yes, it takes for fvcking ever, but the results are impressive. On shows like this, bibles are reference tools, written after each episode airs, tracking the events that happened and the characters that appeared. The showrunners I've worked with are reluctant to spin a five year -- or even two year -- plan, because they don't want to be held to it if they start down that road and find it's not gelling as a story.

                        On the other hand, more procedural shows will tread character water for months at a time, and then have a Very Special Episode where something major happens, but the attention to character is very much secondary. (All this assumes your interest is in hour-long drama, because honestly, if you love being funny, why *wouldn't* you be in the room all day, every day?)
                        Considering most of the work I do would probably earn an M or MA rating in television, I doubt I'll be working with something like the CW.

                        As far as Bibles are concerned, well, in all honesty I only know where I want to see a series taken for two or maybe three seasons. On a sci-fi drama I'm working on, I've got the basic idea for the first two seasons but no details beyond the pilot.

                        Mr. Jones, your experience and the experience of others you know is precisely the sort of 'confirmation' I needed to hear about things. Thank you for your input, and believe me, I take advice from individuals who have had success in these areas very seriously.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                          Originally posted by mrjonesprods View Post
                          I'm basing my initial post on my real life experience and that of my friends. What are you basing your statements on?
                          I'm working on a show right now where there are three creators - two EPs and a Producer. The idea came from one of the EPs but they brought the producer on because of personal life experience. Even if it had been her idea, not sure she would've gotten Co-EP with the other auspices involved and her low level of prior experience. So your mileage may vary based upon who else is on board the project and how many there are. My experience is mostly broadcast, but yes, Cable will probably be more generous with titles as they won't be with money.

                          Sorry for disagreeing, but I wish we could have a robust discussion on this board without it always devolving into he said she said. I apologize for my hyperbole, but I think it's better the OP go in with lower expectations than being insulted when they don't come back with Co-EP.

                          @Alfred - "almost" means "very nearly" so I'm not sure why you're using it as a synonym for "pretty far apart." But I'm clearly the bad guy here so you win! Congratulations.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                            The best way to get whatever title you want is to create the most compelling show possible. This means that you create a pitch that makes people see only you as "The God of your show universe." And that means that you deliver a pilot that's better than your pitch.

                            The whole notion of worrying about being staffed, getting whatever title, etc. is almost moot. Just deliver the best work and you'll get the title (and show equity) you deserve.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Regarding Pilots Being Picked Up

                              @KillerTv. I'm not sure why you're being so put off by this.

                              Mr. Jones said "More than likely" you wanna get technical? That's 51%...
                              You used the word "Guarantee" -- which is 100%

                              All I did was point out those two ideas are far apart.

                              Yes 51% is far apart from 100% -- you're welcome.

                              Your experiences are valid, and referencing those are helpful.
                              Blanket statements with absolute language without evidence to back them is not.

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