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  • Timings to specific page

    I hear this a fair bit and imagine it can only be guidelines in a rough idea.

    What it is is the fact that people will say inciting incident should happen on page 10, act 2 should start page 25 and act three should start page 70.

    Now, I know these are rough guidelines so the structure and pacing is correct so does that mean if your script is 120 pages long then you just work out the maths of where each act start should appear on what page.

    I know this isn't offering great clarity in my question but maybe a simpler way would be to say if act 2 starts at page 25 in a 90 min script then it should start about page 35 in a 120 page script?

    Thanks

  • #2
    Re: Timings to specific page

    1st act 30, 2nd act 60 and 3rd act 30. The inciting incident is where your character is thrust into action and becomes the focus of the story. And you're right. The inciting incident is usually written by page 12 . A lot of times this is where your protagonist deals with the antagonist.

    Good luck,
    KWV

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    • #3
      Re: Timings to specific page

      My advice is don't worry about what page numbers act breaks should happen on. Just think about giving your story an interesting beginning, middle, and end.

      Personally I like to have a steadily increasing pace in the story as well, but your story may have a different structure.

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      • #4
        Re: Timings to specific page

        I think early on, like in a 1st draft, it's nothing to worry about. But instead he f page numbers, think of percentages. Inciting Incident: 10% - 1st Act: 25% - Midpoint: 50% - 2nd Act: 75% - 3rd Act: 25%

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        • #5
          Re: Timings to specific page

          A significant majority of execs I speak with, when we are discussing plot points, they reference page numbers.

          If I'm writing a 100 page spec, if we aren't breaking into 2 by 25, there's too much going on.

          These aren't hard and fast, as has been said a million times, but keeping these things in mind will serve you well in professional conversations. Good luck being a newer writer and going to a former studio head and being like "nah I'm just focused on writing the best story here.-

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          • #6
            Re: Timings to specific page

            Originally posted by Jab2019 View Post

            What it is is the fact that people will say inciting incident should happen on page 10, act 2 should start page 25 and act three should start page 70.
            I suggest that you go to page 2 of this forum and read a thread titled: "Three Act Structure (Part 2)"

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            • #7
              Re: Timings to specific page

              Originally posted by Satriales View Post
              A significant majority of execs I speak with, when we are discussing plot points, they reference page numbers.

              If Im writing a 100 page spec, if we arent breaking into 2 by 25, theres too much going on.

              These arent hard and fast, as has been said a million times, but keeping these things in mind will serve you well in professional conversations. Good luck being a newer writer and going to a former studio head and being like nah Im just focused on writing the best story here.
              I'm drafting a screenplay in which the inciting incident occurs on page two, a bit like the movie Stargate [1994]. Would industry execs dismiss me for a page-number violation?
              Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
              "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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              • #8
                Re: Timings to specific page

                Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                A significant majority of execs I speak with, when we are discussing plot points, they reference page numbers.

                If I’m writing a 100 page spec, if we aren’t breaking into 2 by 25, there’s too much going on.

                These aren’t hard and fast, as has been said a million times, but keeping these things in mind will serve you well in professional conversations. Good luck being a newer writer and going to a former studio head and being like “nah I’m just focused on writing the best story here.”
                Well everyone’s got their own process on how to approach their script.

                But personally (and this is for features not tv), it’s too much of a creative impediment to have to worry about act breaks happening on a specific page. Even after the script is done.

                My stories have structure, and I have no problem thinking an act is too long or too short, and then editing it to fit better. But the rigid page number POV doesn’t work for me.

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                • #9
                  Re: Timings to specific page

                  Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                  I'm working on a draft script in which the inciting incident occurs on page two, a bit like the movie Stargate [1994]. Will I be laughed out of the room for a page-number violation?
                  Inciting incidents are the most negotiable of plot points, IMO. The earlier the better for me. I generally have something in the first few pages that is not a "call to adventure- but serves as an inciting catalyst. Then there's usually a page twelve-ish point that results in ten pages of debate and refusal to the act turn.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Timings to specific page

                    Originally posted by Anagram View Post
                    Well everyone's got their own process on how to approach their script.

                    But personally (and this is for features not tv), it's too much of a creative impediment to have to worry about act breaks happening on a specific page. Even after the script is done.

                    My stories have structure, and I have no problem thinking an act is too long or too short, and then editing it to fit better. But the rigid page number POV doesn't work for me.
                    In a world where 115 page specs are considered lengthy and execs groan if it's over 109, this would seem unwise.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Timings to specific page

                      Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                      In a world where 115 page specs are considered lengthy and execs groan if it’s over 109, this would seem unwise.
                      Personally, I do control the total number of pages in my scripts, and try keep them on the lower side of the scale.

                      What I was referring to is forcing act breaks to happen on a specific page. I aim for more of a range, depending on what the story needs.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Timings to specific page

                        FWIW, I have never heard an exec use some of the terms bandied around here. I know that "break into two" is from "Save The Cat," but that's the extent of my experience with it. The most technical the conversations I'm in ever get is talking about acts.

                        And there are plenty of movies where a quarter of the script is way too late to get the second act started, and movies where the third act is basically a coda that lasts a few minutes. I've seen movies where the inciting incident happens on the first page. A lot of movies these days have way more than three acts. They're constantly flipped and turned and folded to keep things moving.

                        One of my favorite movies is Unforgiven. The movie opens with the inciting incident, before you've met the protagonist. The protagonist and antagonist don't meet until the middle of the movie, and they spend a tiny amount of time on camera with each other. The third act is basically the one scene of Munny taking revenge on the town. If you'd crammed that movie into any formula, you'd kill it.

                        I think the most general ideas are useful for beginners to teach them how screenplays are often structured. Just like when you learn to paint, you learn how to paint a piece of fruit. But past that, there are a million ways to tell a story, and very few of them hew to X happening at Y point in the script, or X character having Y in his background which arcs on page Z.

                        In short: computing page numbers and percentages isn't something most professional writers do or even think about.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Timings to specific page

                          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                          FWIW, I have never heard an exec use some of the terms bandied around here. I know that "break into two" is from "Save The Cat," but that's the extent of my experience with it. The most technical the conversations I'm in ever get is talking about acts.

                          And there are plenty of movies where a quarter of the script is way too late to get the second act started, and movies where the third act is basically a coda that lasts a few minutes. I've seen movies where the inciting incident happens on the first page. A lot of movies these days have way more than three acts. They're constantly flipped and turned and folded to keep things moving.

                          One of my favorite movies is Unforgiven. The movie opens with the inciting incident, before you've met the protagonist. The protagonist and antagonist don't meet until the middle of the movie, and they spend a tiny amount of time on camera with each other. The third act is basically the one scene of Munny taking revenge on the town. If you'd crammed that movie into any formula, you'd kill it.

                          I think the most general ideas are useful for beginners to teach them how screenplays are often structured. Just like when you learn to paint, you learn how to paint a piece of fruit. But past that, there are a million ways to tell a story, and very few of them hew to X happening at Y point in the script, or X character having Y in his background which arcs on page Z.

                          In short: computing page numbers and percentages isn't something most professional writers do or even think about.
                          Thanks Jeff, it’s nice to hear that from someone like you. The golden age of this forum for me was when all the pro’s were here giving out advice and dispelling myths. It certainly changed how I write.

                          I’m not trying to invalidate what Satriales is saying, she clearly has a process that works for her, and is trying to share her experiences.

                          But every writer needs to find their own process, one that helps them produce the best story possible. The further I’ve moved away from formula, the better my writing has become. It doesn’t mean my stories have no structure, it just means I found one that works for me and I don’t for a second think it’s applicable to everyone else.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Timings to specific page

                            My problem with the Save the Cat beat sheet is that there's nothing it offers that you couldn't figure out for yourself by reading produced scripts and watching movies -- that's how Snyder came up with his beat sheet, didn't he?

                            It also bugs me that the examples used are only those films that fit his template. There are so many successful films that break StC "rules" like what page to insert the thematic question or when to start the B story or even the break into act 2.

                            My biggest problem with it? Far too many "new" screenwriters adhere to the beat sheet as if it's the magic bullet for a great screenplay ignoring the fact that it's HOW you write those beats when telling a story for the screen -- not what page or minute it should appear.

                            I've read scripts where the StC beat sheet was so obvious yet the "beats" were, well, boring, obvious, formulaic, in spite of landing on the "right" page as per the StC beat sheet.

                            As for Act 2 falling on page 25, I'd say it depends on the genre. In an action movie -- depending on the plot -- IMO, page 25 is rather late for the protag to heed the call to adventure.

                            StC advocates point out that, in The Matrix, Neo takes the pill on page 25-ish therefore supporting Snyder's beat sheet.

                            But The Matrix required much world building before the pill scene so it's understandable it would have a longish Act 1.

                            But if an Action plot is set in current times, rooted in reality, trying to fill up those first 20-plus pages before the protag sets out on the adventure on page 25 may end up pretty boring.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                            • #15
                              Re: Timings to specific page

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              FWIW, I have never heard an exec use some of the terms bandied around here. I know that "break into two" is from "Save The Cat," but that's the extent of my experience with it. The most technical the conversations I'm in ever get is talking about acts.

                              And there are plenty of movies where a quarter of the script is way too late to get the second act started, and movies where the third act is basically a coda that lasts a few minutes. I've seen movies where the inciting incident happens on the first page. A lot of movies these days have way more than three acts. They're constantly flipped and turned and folded to keep things moving.

                              One of my favorite movies is Unforgiven. The movie opens with the inciting incident, before you've met the protagonist. The protagonist and antagonist don't meet until the middle of the movie, and they spend a tiny amount of time on camera with each other. The third act is basically the one scene of Munny taking revenge on the town. If you'd crammed that movie into any formula, you'd kill it.

                              I think the most general ideas are useful for beginners to teach them how screenplays are often structured. Just like when you learn to paint, you learn how to paint a piece of fruit. But past that, there are a million ways to tell a story, and very few of them hew to X happening at Y point in the script, or X character having Y in his background which arcs on page Z.

                              In short: computing page numbers and percentages isn't something most professional writers do or even think about.
                              Try writing on spec in 2020 and then doing rewrites for, occasionally, little money. You'll have page number conversations. Consider yourself lucky.

                              Comment

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