The Equalizer - groan!

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: The Equalizer - groan!

    Originally posted by NotTheBard View Post
    I call bulls**t on a lot of posts here. I wonder how people would react if they made someone like Blade a white person.
    I wouldn't care. Race is not part of that *story*.

    What if a Black actor were cast as James Bond? Awesome! Why not? Race is not part of that story or character. The surface is not important. What if they cast a woman as James Bond? Interesting... I'd want to see that.

    My favorite show as a kid was THE WILD WILD WEST. They cast Will Smith as the lead in the film version: COOL! He was a great choice. The film sucked, but the swagger of Robert Conrad and the swagger of Will Smith are a match.

    I have no idea the race (or even sex) of any of the characters I write... those are casting decisions. It's kind of cool to see what they look like: an Asian American lead, an African American lead, a role that I thought of as male who became *better* when they cast a female, etc. The actor plays the character, the character doesn't play the actor.

    If the character is only their surface, there is no character...

    Bill
    Free Script Tips:
    http://www.scriptsecrets.net

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: The Equalizer - groan!

      Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
      I have no idea the race (or even sex) of any of the characters I write...
      I don't know what scripts you're writing, or what kinds of scripts you're writing, but that seems very odd. The notion seems good, or (at least) intriguing, but the reality - if that is the reality - seems very odd.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: The Equalizer - groan!

        Story characters (just like ordinary people) are more than their exteriors.

        "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." -- Aristotle
        “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: The Equalizer - groan!

          Originally posted by Manchester View Post
          I don't know what scripts you're writing, or what kinds of scripts you're writing, but that seems very odd. The notion seems good, or (at least) intriguing, but the reality - if that is the reality - seems very odd.
          I had a female character's love interest (who I figured would be male when I wrote the scenes) end up being female. The character was identified by last name, so it could have gone either way... but if you were to have asked me when I wrote it, it was a dude. Guess what? Didn't hurt the story at all. Instead it made kind of a standard love interest supporting character into something different.

          ADD: On one of the two things I've got going now, the protag has a tough as nails mentor. Early meeting we were talking about casting and they mentioned the difficulty of finding a male for the role, as stars that age are still stars... not playing secondary mentor roles. I suggest we cast female, since you can get a name female star in that age range. Plus it would be cool to have a freakin' badass female mentor character. That role will now be cast female.

          But Whoopi Goldberg was famous for being the go to star when a male comedy lead dropped out. She played roles that Bruce Willis and Eddie Murphy and a bunch of others were originally cast in.

          I focus on the character of the character, not the externals (which are subject to change with casting).

          Bill
          Last edited by wcmartell; 06-13-2014, 10:25 PM.
          Free Script Tips:
          http://www.scriptsecrets.net

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: The Equalizer - groan!

            Many people dislike the change in a character's race just as much as they would dislike a blonde Superman or Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne or Wonder Woman or Mary Jane Watson. Saying one is prejudiced towards blonde people because of that would be ignorant and insulting.

            Denzel is awesome. The problem in The Equalizer, for instance, is not in DW. It's in the script and its relation (or lack of thereof) to the source material. Again, when the remake material deviates to such an extent from the source, why bother even using the original's name? If it's not considered material familiar or established enough to be respected the way a Superman or Batman would, if it's about keeping the bare bones of the concept, then why bother keeping the title at all, if it's not considered recognizable enough?

            Why do people tend to think only in extremes? As if there was some rule that said if they're not going to be relatively faithul to the source material they have to completely reinvent it. Just because Supes should have punched some stuff in one movie, that doesn't mean he should spend an entire half of another movie punching stuff.

            Michael Mann remade his own Miami Vice from the ground up, and it didn't work (in the sense that it didn't make the expected profits, otherwise there would have been a sequel by now) because one of the reasons is that indeed it was firmly established in the 80s aesthetic and culture.

            In 21 Jump Street the mere concept itself on such level is indeed outdated. Not all shows are great shows. Not all characters are great characters, or at least treated greatly. Many are enjoyable for their level of cheese. Miami Vice being an example (and its trendy-set fashion sense at the time).

            Using the "changes" made to The Fugitive, Flintstones etc. is really pulling at straws. Regarding examples of other shows remade for the big screen, I already addressed that in my previous posts. Some elements hold up, others don't. Some are firmly established in a certain time or place. Others can and should be changed. Batman and Superman changed a lot since their first issues came out back in the day. Many things have changed since. And still, the details around the concepts that make the characters who they are are still there, after all this time.

            No need to make Superman a woman - there's already a Supergirl or Wonder Woman.

            How a movie affects or not a book, for instance, could be asked to the Travis McGee estate, who were reluctant to sell the rights for a very long time. Because if the movie sucked, it could push away a great many deal of new readers and they'd lose mucho dinero in the process. Until Leo wooed them, apparently.

            In the case of The Equalizer, it wasn't just the change of race or accent of the character, it was everything that went out the window with it. "Former Black Ops/intelligence officer comes out of retirement to use his skills to help common folk". In other words, most writers could come up with a new story with different characters around that concept. The bare bones concept is so simple (and timeless) and unrelated to the source material that anyone could have thought of such a simple concept itself.

            Take that concept and strip away the details that made the character (there are quite a few more than the ones I listed previously), then why The Equalizer? Why not Stingray or Vengeance Unlimited? On recent TV, we have Burn Notice or Person of Interest.

            What's wrong with wanting to keep the race or sex or nationality of a character? I want to watch a good Wonder Woman or Tomb Raider movie, not Wonder Man or Larry Croft. Change Lara Croft's sex and you might as well have Indiana Jones or Nathan Drake. Again, if not for the details, those characters are interchangeable.

            When it comes to changing or keeping to the source material and the way it relates to fans and profits. Well, Marvel stayed pretty faithful to their own characters, and made some good money for it, to put it lightly. Been working for them.

            When it comes to the issue of the exterior/surface of a character, indeed it's not just what makes the character. In case of The Equalizer, it was also his relationship with other characters, how they affected him in past and present, and how he related to them when retiring - Control, Mickey, Scott - important people in that character's life, and some of the elements that distinguish such character from others similar to it. Or how McCall related with his clients. That's not just surface. It's characterization.

            McCall also enjoyed the finer material things in life - classy car, classy suits, classy apartment. Even if his car or suit would sometimes seem out of place. That's not just surface, it's part of the characterization. McCall also was not a health food fanatic in great shape, quite the opposite. Also part of the characterization. And thus, not simply skin deep minor details.
            Last edited by NotTheBard; 06-13-2014, 10:36 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: The Equalizer - groan!

              Originally posted by NotTheBard View Post
              When it comes to the issue of the exterior/surface of a character, indeed it's not just what makes the character. In case of The Equalizer, it was also his relationship with other characters, how they affected him in past and present, and how he related to them when retiring - Control, Mickey, Scott - important people in that character's life, and some of the elements that distinguish such character from others similar to it. Or how McCall related with his clients. That's not just surface. It's characterization.

              McCall also enjoyed the finer material things in life - classy car, classy suits, classy apartment. Even if his car or suit would sometimes seem out of place. That's not just surface, it's part of the characterization. McCall also was not a health food fanatic in great shape, quite the opposite. Also part of the characterization. And thus, not simply skin deep minor details.
              Fine. I can see possible arguments for retaining these in the movie, since they appear specific to the character.

              Originally posted by NotTheBard View Post
              What's wrong with wanting to keep the race or sex or nationality of a character? I want to watch a good Wonder Woman or Tomb Raider movie, not Wonder Man or Larry Croft. Change Lara Croft's sex and you might as well have Indiana Jones or Nathan Drake. Again, if not for the details, those characters are interchangeable.
              There is a problem with arguing so hard to keep the race of a character when the race has no bearing on who he is or what he does.

              You have not yet stated a single solid reason why The Equalizer should remain white. Which strongly suggests that the only reason you have is that you are just more comfortable with him being that way. Which is a weak reason.

              Based on your logic, James Bond should also remain white forevermore just because that's the way it's always been, even though many people think Idris Elba would make a fine replacement. But James Bond is defined by his personality and skills, not by his race.

              Speaking of James Bond, I remember there was sniping about the fact that Daniel Craig had blonde hair when he was cast. While I thought this was ridiculous, I understood that, for better or worse, there are certain associations that people make with blonde hair in our culture that might affect the way they saw him.

              You are trying to equate that with people not wanting to see The Equalizer as black. Is there something about blackness that you think would not make a good fit for The Equalizer? If so, please do tell. We're all waiting.
              Last edited by UpandComing; 06-14-2014, 08:29 AM.
              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                Originally posted by TigerFang View Post
                Story characters (just like ordinary people) are more than their exteriors.

                "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." -- Aristotle
                OK. But many, many ordinary people treat others differently because of the exteriors of those others. And that in turn effects change in the interiors of those others.

                Also, whether a character is of a particular gender/race, that often informs the actions of the characters around them.

                And so, "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts," but let's not ignore the parts.
                Last edited by Manchester; 06-14-2014, 08:39 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                  Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                  I had a female character's love interest (who I figured would be male when I wrote the scenes) end up being female. The character was identified by last name, so it could have gone either way... but if you were to have asked me when I wrote it, it was a dude. Guess what? Didn't hurt the story at all. Instead it made kind of a standard love interest supporting character into something different.

                  ADD: On one of the two things I've got going now, the protag has a tough as nails mentor. Early meeting we were talking about casting and they mentioned the difficulty of finding a male for the role, as stars that age are still stars... not playing secondary mentor roles. I suggest we cast female, since you can get a name female star in that age range. Plus it would be cool to have a freakin' badass female mentor character. That role will now be cast female.

                  But Whoopi Goldberg was famous for being the go to star when a male comedy lead dropped out. She played roles that Bruce Willis and Eddie Murphy and a bunch of others were originally cast in.

                  I focus on the character of the character, not the externals (which are subject to change with casting).

                  Bill
                  I still don't get it, but I appreciate the reply.

                  As for the Whoopi Goldberg mention, I'm presuming - perhaps wrongly - that, when she was substituted, the script was tweaked. (And I'm assuming that "Sister Act" is not one of those that originally was written for a male.) In other words, I'm not saying that a character in any given story is immutable. And in "Lethal Weapon", I don't think any changes were needed when Danny Glover was cast as Murtaugh (though the original plan/assumption was that Murtaugh was white). I also don't think "The Equalizer" would have needed changes if a white actor had been cast as the protag. But in lots of stories, if the writer writes without a sense of the gender or race of a central character, it seems to me that opportunities are being left on the table.

                  OTOH, Bill, you make a living at this and I don't.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                    Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                    Speaking of James Bond, I remember there was sniping about the fact that Daniel Craig had blonde hair when he was cast. While I thought this was ridiculous, I understood that, for better or worse, there are certain associations that people make with blonde hair in our culture that might affect the way they saw him.

                    You are trying to equate that with people not wanting to see The Equalizer as black. Is there something about blackness that you think would not make a good fit for The Equalizer? If so, please do tell. We're all waiting.
                    Sure, I'd rather have a white Brit for The Equalizer, so what?

                    You're saying that I have a "problem with blackness" - as you put it, just because I'd rather have a white Brit playing a character just because it would make it closer to the original portrait?

                    I'd take Idris Elba over Denzel Washington any day, just because Elba is actually British and has the voice and accent to go with the role.

                    And Craig being called Blonde Bond and the sniping that went with it had absolutely nothing to do with cultural associations regarding hair color. It was simply the same case as here.

                    I'm a big Bond fan, and a not so big Superman fan. Bond being blonde doesn't annoy me, but if Superman was cast as blonde it would.

                    I forgot, it's okay to be annoyed about a character's hair color, but not race. I just thought they were details on about the same level, neither affect the character, they're just a part of the character.
                    Last edited by NotTheBard; 06-14-2014, 10:21 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                      Originally posted by NotTheBard View Post
                      Sure, I'd rather have a white Brit for The Equalizer, so what?
                      Thank you for finally coming out and saying it.

                      Originally posted by NotTheBard View Post
                      I'd be just as annoyed if they cast a white Brit as Blade, Spawn or Falcon. What would that be, reverse "problem with blackness"?
                      While I think of Wesley Snipes when I think of Blade (because I think he did such a great job with that role), I wouldn't see it as a stretch if he were replaced with a white actor. But it would have to be a white actor who brings badassness to mind as much as Wesley Snipes does. Because badassness is a defining trait of the character. For this reason, I could see Jason Statham (a Brit) or Mickey Rourke as Blade more than I could Will Smith or Denzel Washington or Tom Cruise.

                      Originally posted by NotTheBard View Post
                      You're saying that I have a "problem with blackness" - as you put it, just because I'd rather have a white Brit playing a character that I'm a fan of? Just because it would make it closer to the source material?
                      I'm saying that you see differences based on race when it comes to who plays The Equalizer. Differences that I find rather artificial. And that it appears, most people in this thread do as well.

                      But like you said, you're entitled to your own opinion.
                      Last edited by UpandComing; 06-14-2014, 10:38 AM.
                      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                        Originally posted by Manchester View Post
                        Also, whether a character is of a particular gender/race, that often informs the actions of the characters around them.
                        Hm. Sounds like sexists/racists are around.

                        Originally posted by Manchester View Post
                        And so, "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts," but let's not ignore the parts.
                        Silly man. Of course the whole cannot be without its parts.
                        Last edited by Clint Hill; 06-14-2014, 03:47 PM.
                        “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                          Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                          Thank you for finally coming out and saying it.

                          While I think of Wesley Snipes when I think of Blade (because I think he did such a great job with that role), I wouldn't see it as a stretch if he were replaced with a white actor. But it would have to be a white actor who brings bad-assness to mind as much as Wesley Snipes does. Because bad-assness is a defining trait of the character. For this reason, I could see Jason Statham (a Brit) or Mickey Rourke as Blade more than I could Will Smith or Denzel Washington or Tom Cruise.

                          I'm saying that you see differences based on race when it comes to who plays The Equalizer. Differences that I find rather artificial. And that it appears, most people in this thread do as well.

                          But like you said, you're entitled to your own opinion.
                          I've been stating that I agree with the OP from the beginning. But what you did was cherry-pick excerpts from my posts and conveniently dismissed the rest. So of course you missed it.

                          And just so that you can say that I "see differences based on race", when I actually indicated on numerous occasions that I consider that a detail on the same level as any other, such as hair color, dress code and so on. Sometimes even moreso in a character of which I'm less a fan of.

                          Yes, it's nitpicking.

                          In the same way that bitching about Bond being blonde or Cruise not being tall enough to play Jack Reacher is also nitpicking. Neither affects the plot, those are just details that are part of the original portraits of the characters. But you obviously neglected that.
                          Last edited by NotTheBard; 06-14-2014, 10:55 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                            Originally posted by NotTheBard View Post
                            Yes, it's nitpicking.

                            In the same way that bitching about Bond being blonde or Cruise not being tall enough to play Jack Reacher is also nitpicking. Neither affects the plot, those are just details that are part of the original characters.
                            I'm glad you used the words "nitpicking" and "bitching", perfect words to illustrate how absolutely ridiculous all the complaining about these different qualities -- hair color, height, and race, which have nothing to do with the plot -- are.
                            "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                              I watched the trailer. Denzel looks to be in top form, here, bald head and all. With that said, I think the larger issue is that the original Equalizer -- as a serialized, episodic TV show -- was more character driven than plot driven.

                              The trailer clearly shows Denzel's Equalizer is taking on the Russian Mob. That would be difficult to do in a tailored suit without breaking a sweat. The PLOT of this film indeed requires a different back story and characterization of the protag. Making him black ops trained is necessary because the plot requires a badass soldier verses a gentleman intelligence officer who happens to be good with a gun.

                              So, I'm making an argument that the PLOT of this rebooted TV show adapted as a feature would not work with the original character, as is.

                              This brings us to the question -- then why not an Anglo-Saxon black-ops trained badass with a Brit accent to honor the original character?

                              The question alone presses a lot of "racist" buttons for many Americans. Folks on the other side of the pond don't usually get why it presses our buttons because they weren't born and raised here. "Your" logic ( ref. non- Americans, here) when arguing the point will only sound like more racism to those of us, in America, who deeply want to move toward total color-blindness for the sake of future generations. And, considering who we elected for two terms as our President, I can safely say, more than half of our country shares this goal. The remaining portion are slowing us down.

                              It may seem quaint to Europeans when we Americans get all riled up over this topic but the reasons run deep to the core of our society. You'll simply have to accept it. (The same way I accept when Brits get misty-eyed over the royals.)

                              You won't talk us out of it when we do react. Just understand such opinions will always sound racist to many of us. Whether or not there is some racism tucked into your POV is not for me to say. Search your own hearts to answer that question.
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: The Equalizer - groan!

                                Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                                I'm glad you used the words "nitpicking" and "bitching", perfect words to illustrate how absolutely ridiculous all the complaining about these different qualities -- hair color, height, and race, which have nothing to do with the plot -- are.
                                I'm glad that you continue to cherry-pick whatever you feel like to your own convenience.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X