Three writers for the same job

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  • #16
    Re: Three writers for the same job

    She is a producer who's company my manager said had a development deal.

    However, this particular project is a join effort with another production company. And they have a producer who is handling financing and supposedly has some repeat investors who have already put up money for this project.

    I'm not counting on anything. First because I know you can't do that. Second because I don't need to. Obviously. I want to get my career going but I'm happy where I'm at.

    Originally posted by surftatboy View Post
    Sorry, I'm a little lost.

    This is a producer with a studio deal or indie or? And who's "she", one of the producers, your agent/manager?

    I'm inclined to cautiously side with ProfessorChomp on this.

    Oops, giving an example from my life, plug your ears if you don't want to hear it: Recently one of the films we sold was set to go into production. However, just weeks before it was set to go it was still up in the air whether or not financing would fall apart. It was literally down to the wire, production got pushed back a week. 30 mil budget.

    I never count on money until the check's been cashed and in my bank for several weeks without bouncing. I'd believe it when I see it, is all.

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    • #17
      Re: Three writers for the same job

      Hey EdFury, a big congrats to you! Slupo this is common now unfortunately. Hoping you get it, good luck.

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      • #18
        Re: Three writers for the same job

        Originally posted by ProfessorChomp View Post
        First off, congrats to EdFury! But see, that's what I was talking about earlier. The producer didn't pay EdFury himself, as OP was describing. Ed had to beat the other writers for the chance just to go pitch the star, then the studio, then the network, and only then is there pay. My caution to OP is not to trust this producer to pay anything out of pocket, despite talk of a development fund.
        Thanks and you are 100% correct. Not a dime until everyone signed off on my idea. It was a screenwriter beauty contest with the winner passing GO and collecting the $200. (That's not a literal figure, ok?)

        I did, however, trust this producer. I'd worked for her before on some rewrite assignments her company was quite happy with. I like her a lot. And at our lunch where we talked about a lot of subjects, this was the last. Almost a throwaway on her part, telling me about the project and the actor. And what they were looking for. So I told her I'd come up with something... And then I worked my ass off because who knows if kind of opportunity comes again.

        Everything about this job is a crapshoot anyway, so I dealt myself in.

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        • #19
          Re: Three writers for the same job

          Originally posted by madworld View Post
          Hey EdFury, a big congrats to you! Slupo this is common now unfortunately. Hoping you get it, good luck.
          Thanks.

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          • #20
            Re: Three writers for the same job

            Originally posted by slupo View Post
            Is this a pretty standard way of doing business these days?
            I know two specific managers who do this when having clients spec out their idea/concept, so it's becoming pretty common even from earlier story development...

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            • #21
              Re: Three writers for the same job

              Originally posted by EdFury View Post
              Join the club. I just did this for a series. Producers came to me for my take on a new series for an established star. Told me what this star wanted as far as a loose premise and some interesting casting requirements. I knew I wasn't the only one they approached. My guess is at least a half dozen other writers. So I did the free work involved, knowing it probably wasn't going anywhere.

              Except it did. They loved my take. The star loved my take. A cable network loved the take. Two months of negotiations with my reps later and I'm writing the pilot and creating a bible. For pay. Yes. Most of the time these things are a waste of time, but sometimes... they're not. You have to do your best job and hope they agree with you instead of the others. It's a shitty way to do things, but someone's going to end up with a job most of the time. I hope it's you.
              That's fantastic, Ed. So happy for you!

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              • #22
                Re: Three writers for the same job

                Originally posted by EnsconcedinVelvet View Post
                That's fantastic, Ed. So happy for you!
                Thanks. It's still an ongoing adventure. They all have to sign off on the pilot script, but at least I'm getting paid to write it.

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                • #23
                  Re: Three writers for the same job

                  Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
                  You can't afford NOT to have principles. I know I'm always sounding like a broken record but... what you should have done differently is ASK FOR PAYMENT. Not just ask... INSIST. Never, ever, ever, ever, work for free. I don't care if it's rewriting a treatment, writing a script, rewriting a script, writing a synopsis, or ANYTHING. If they ask you to do some work, you ask for money.

                  "Granted, I knew full well I was doing work for free. I'm not in the guild and figure I gotta take my lumps for a chance to get paid."

                  This is EXACTLY the attitude that producers prey on, and it's a complete misconception. Just because you're not in the guild doesn't mean you don't deserve to get paid. Just because you're not Aaron Sorkin doesn't mean you don't deserve to get paid. You don't have to take any lumps. You DO have to ask to get paid. And if asking to get paid makes the producer walk, then believe me, they weren't worth your time.

                  I know plenty of people on this board disagree with me on this... but you really DON'T have to be desperate. I used to do what you did. I would jump at the opportunity to do something for free if it had even the slightest chance of leading to a break some kind or something that would be paid -- and of course it never did. There was ALWAYS a catch of some kind -- oh they don't have the funding in the end. Oh there's other writers on the concept, too. Oh it fell through because the producer's A-list contact moved to Thailand. Then, a few years ago, I was emailing with a writer on this board (who doesn't frequent it anymore) and he told me he made a decision a year prior not to do ANYTHING for any producer, director, manager or anyone else in the industry for less than $2,000. And sure enough -- and I'll use his own words here, "It may be just a coincidence but since making that decision I optioned a script for $2,500 and got a paid writing assignment for $2,000." This convinced me. I then decided to do the same thing and I'm telling you the same thing happened to me. I set a minimum amount and sure enough GOT IT for a script option and actually got FIVE TIMES it for an assignment. I'm telling you -- if you decide you deserve to get paid, if you respect your own time and work/effort, if you decide your work is worth money, you WILL be paid for your work. It's a weird Oprah/Eckhart Tolle/The Secret thing that I never believed in until I had this experience with the aforementioned writer I was emailing with who made me change my ways.

                  I think this is the last I'll say on this matter ever on these forums -- probably to the relief of many I just get extremely frustrated seeing the same thing happen over and over again and seeing people in the industry take advantage of screenwriters' desperation.

                  Don't be desperate anymore.

                  Work hard.

                  Write what you love.

                  Decide you must be paid and you will be paid.

                  It's as simple as that.
                  You don't have to quit saying it. I'm here all the time and this is the first time I've read it. I think it's an important aspect.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Three writers for the same job

                    Congrats, Ed Fury!
                    http://www.pjmcilvaine.com/

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                    • #25
                      Re: Three writers for the same job

                      Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
                      [U]"It may be just a coincidence but since making that decision I optioned a script for $2,500 and got a paid writing assignment for $2,000." This convinced me.
                      Is this not a hollow victory unless it sells? Even so, they recoup your $2,500 from said deal, should you make one. I'm not getting the upside. I'd rather not be paid the option upfront, as I am then stuck not shopping the script for months/year if they lose interest. $2,500 isn't enough of a commitment [up front] for me to believe they are serious about pushing it through the system [re: spec script specifically]. Whereas I feel the free development is more valuable, particularly if they are a big. If they walk, I'm free to go wherever I want, taking their development with me free of charge.

                      I'm interested to know how you see the $2,500 as a victory [specifically on a spec].

                      You do win the Harlan Ellison award. In theory I like your position, in practice I'm not convinced it's a good strategy.
                      DOPE CITY

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                      • #26
                        Re: Three writers for the same job

                        Originally posted by surftatboy View Post
                        I'm working (developing) with a top tier producer now, I've never brought up money. Why bother? What're they going to pay you 5k? Not worth disrupting things IMO. It's not a paycheck, thus not worth the effort to try to secure it. Despite the fact that he could definitely afford to pay it.
                        5k for someone who just does this for a living and scraping by is a lot of money, 5k pays my rent for 5 months.

                        If it's not real money, or a paycheck, then why not ask for it? If it really is NO MONEY then they should have no issue giving it to you.

                        Originally posted by surftatboy View Post
                        I look at it this way: it's my project, nobody is being paid yet. They are helping me get it in shape for the studio/director. Why should I be paid now when they aren't?
                        So they work with you to better the script and now you can't pitch that script because now it was developed in conjunction with them so now it's "our script"... Not "your script".


                        Originally posted by surftatboy View Post
                        Also -- if you're working with a big producer, why raise that red flag? At the very least it helps you understand how big producers do things (what they expect of your work). Why be the guy whining about a few bucks. If I were that producer of think "dude... I have money from projects that SOLD or got MADE." I'd also be thinking "what's going to happen down the road when a studio asks him to do a rewrite as a favor?" Sometimes you have to do a 'quick pass' (or whatever bullshit the studio wants to call it) for free in a time crunch. But that favor turns into the studio owing you down the road. Your agent will definitely remind them on the next deal. Sometimes it's better to make friends in high places vs securing some chump change.
                        I can see that, to a degree, it's nice to be nice, specially if you believe in the project... And you do hope people once they come into money they will think of you... But you can also be nice, and get paid... Just give them more bang for their buck.

                        I've been in the situation where I've gotten asked to act/promote things for free, and if it's something I like or a person I really vibe with I'll do it if its simple... But everything else I ask for money, for any money, and I've found holding out has made me more valuable... While I get less offers (because people know to not hit me for free stuff), when the offers do come they do tend to be larger, way larger than my friends get... And I rather that. I'm not in everything, keep my exclusivity, and when I do something I feel people get a better deal because I'm not in everything.

                        But I see value to what you are saying too, and not opposed to working on something you believe in regardless of pay or lack of.
                        Last edited by Mpimentel; 02-18-2016, 11:23 AM.
                        "We're going to be rich!" - 1/2 hr COMEDY written/directed/edited by me, I also act in it.
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                        • #27
                          Re: Three writers for the same job

                          Originally posted by surftatboy View Post
                          Is this not a hollow victory unless it sells? Even so, they recoup your $2,500 from said deal, should you make one. I'm not getting the upside. I'd rather not be paid the option upfront, as I am then stuck not shopping the script for months/year if they lose interest. $2,500 isn't enough of a commitment [up front] for me to believe they are serious about pushing it through the system [re: spec script specifically]. Whereas I feel the free development is more valuable, particularly if they are a big. If they walk, I'm free to go wherever I want, taking their development with me free of charge.

                          I'm interested to know how you see the $2,500 as a victory [specifically on a spec].

                          You do win the Harlan Ellison award. In theory I like your position, in practice I'm not convinced it's a good strategy.
                          Hmmm... maybe I'm not getting your point but I don't see how optioning a script for $2500 is a hollow victory. It means you got paid for your work. If it sells you get paid a ton more. If it doesn't you get it back and can option it again. To me, $2500 is exactly $2500 better than a free option.

                          Thanks for the Harlan Ellison award I 'm trying to picture what that statue would look like: probably an irate middle-aged man with his first in the air and his other hand holding a notebook

                          "In theory I like your position, in practice I'm not convinced it's a good strategy."

                          I know... I'm not saying that working for free won't ever lead to anything -- this thread is proof that it can lead to things. I just think we should get paid for our work and collectively should make the decision to stop working for free.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Three writers for the same job

                            grumpywriter is right. Writing for free devalues your work.

                            surftatboy is also right. Asking for a few thousand bucks devalues your work.

                            For me, a few thousand bucks isn't anywhere near enough money to give someone title or claim to my original scripts. It's also not enough to convince me to dedicate months of time toward writing some producer's idea which I won't own.

                            Ownership of script is far, far, far more valuable to me. I don't give it away for cheap. Not for $2000, not for $5000, and certainly not for the promise of a payday once financing is secure.

                            I'll pitch for free. I'll break stories and give my take for free. It's a lot of work, but it's the nature of the industry. Ad agencies, graphic designers, architects all pitch for free, but it's for a guaranteed payday if chosen.

                            I'll never write someone else's idea for less than $20k. And I'll never relinquish ownership of my own scripts for less than $40k. Those numbers represent exactly where I'm at in my career, as well as the market value of my writing, which I expect will rise in the next year.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Three writers for the same job

                              Originally posted by Mpimentel View Post
                              5k for someone who just does this for a living and scraping by is a lot of money, 5k pays my rent for 5 months.
                              I'm moving where you live!

                              Originally posted by Mpimentel View Post
                              If it's not real money, or a paycheck, then why not ask for it? If it really is NO MONEY then they should have no issue giving it to you.
                              You can if you'd like. But generally it's seen as premature and entitled [if nobody has been paid yet.] For me it would depend on if anyone else is getting paid. [caveat - no way in hell I'd spec for a manager. ZERO! That's just me.]


                              Originally posted by Mpimentel View Post
                              So they work with you to better the script and now you can't pitch that script because now it was developed in conjunction with them so now it's "our script"... Not "your script".
                              Not if it's your spec. You walk with whatever they put into it. If it's their idea, why are you writing an entire script for free? A pitch for an assignment? I don't need to be paid for that. But, like I said, I want to know what my odds are going in [how many people are up for this assignment etc.]


                              Originally posted by Mpimentel View Post
                              I've been in the situation where I've gotten asked to act/promote things for free, and if it's something I like or a person I really vibe with I'll do it if its simple... But everything else I ask for money, for any money, and I've found holding out has made me more valuable... While I get less offers (because people know to not hit me for free stuff), when the offers do come they do tend to be larger, way larger than my friends get... And I rather that. I'm not in everything, keep my exclusivity, and when I do something I feel people get a better deal because I'm not in everything.

                              But I see value to what you are saying too.
                              Here's an anecdote to highlight what I'm referring to on a larger stage: A writer pal of mine was on a script as a script doctor. A script that sold for 1.5 mind you. They brought him in at 100k a week. 9 weeks later he was done [yeah, do the math on that, I'm envious too]. Anyway, weeks later, after he'd already moved on to something else, the studio came back with "umm…like…can you do a quick pass on this. It's like a day's work. We're in a time crunch. No time to make a deal. Just do us this favor." He conferred with his agent. Agent said 'fvck it, just do it, you'll be in good favor, we'll get you paid for it later [meaning, in a future deal for something else.] The writer did the HALF A WEEK quick pass for free [that's $50,000 if you're doing the math].

                              The film was released and was a hit. You can get paid on that later. I believe it's a better strategy. Or, or you can choose to say 'fvck you pay me!' I'd rather have someone owe me one, assuming they are at a lofty enough level that I believe it will circle back. All depends on the scenario.
                              Last edited by surftatboy; 02-18-2016, 11:49 AM.
                              DOPE CITY

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                              • #30
                                Re: Three writers for the same job

                                Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
                                Thanks for the Harlan Ellison award I 'm trying to picture what that statue would look like: probably an irate middle-aged man with his first in the air and his other hand holding a notebook
                                Dang it, you missed a rad joke. I was waiting for: "Thanks for the Harlan Ellison award I 'm trying to picture what that statue would look like: probably an irate middle-aged man with his fist in the air and his other hand holding a... paycheck."


                                Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
                                I know... I'm not saying that working for free won't ever lead to anything -- this thread is proof that it can lead to things. I just think we should get paid for our work and collectively should make the decision to stop working for free.
                                I agree with the gist. We just disagree on what constitutes 'work.' I get it's all work, but which of it is bookable? It's hard to make the case that an assignment pitch is bookable. Unless it were structured as a sort of flat/universal 'demo fee.' $500? Does that sound about right? I'll sign that petition. Let's see if WGA agrees.
                                DOPE CITY

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