Three Act Structure (Part 2)

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  • #31
    Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

    " Writers need to put in the 10,000+ hours of writing.-

    Who says? A guy who wrote a book and misinterpreted a study? To get to what level?

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    • #32
      Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

      There's an old saying that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become great at something. That's what I was referencing.

      Writers are limited to become the best versions of themselves. Everybody can improve. The question is what is your ceiling? Those with great imagination and a gift for the craft have a much higher ceiling than someone who does not possess those things.

      Anyone can learn the beats of a standard 3 act screenplay. Learn what they do and where they come in and even examples of movies that used them.

      When I say, execution can't be learned. I mean the orchestration, composition, organization of the scenes. You can tell people all day about the terms and there's nothing wrong with knowing the terms. Why shouldn't you? The execution of an idea into a good script can't be taught.

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      • #33
        Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

        I'm mostly pushing back on the idea of Malcolm Gladwell as someone who should be listened to.

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        • #34
          Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

          I'll tell you what, if you really do put in 10,000 hours on something and still are no good, maybe you should quit.

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          • #35
            Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

            Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
            I'll tell you what, if you really do put in 10,000 hours on something and still are no good, maybe you should quit.
            That's fair. To me, I wouldn't have had the mental toughness to do this for ten years with no progress.

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            • #36
              Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

              Nailing down the broad strokes to your script is instinctive. You need snap shots of what the middle looks like and snapshots of what the end may entail before you start to try and build that bridge from moment to moment.

              You should have an idea of where you wanna be in the middle of this story and where you see the end going before you make an attempt at writing the script.

              Ideas really are a dime a dozen. You can work on a logline and make it sound intriguing. About anything. A bank heist. A romantic relationship. Whatever. If you pit two strong forces against each other in battle with a prize on the line you have yourself a logline.

              Scenes fail on the scene level. This is from my experience. When you read lots of scripts from budding writers, writers high on passion but low on technique scenes are long, very expository, there's five and six line dialogue exchanges when the character starts hinting about one of many things like his past or his habit or his sorrows.

              A great script is going to have characters reveal themselves to me through action not tell me about themselves. An amateur and a pro go to write a script about a fireman. The amateur script opens with the character sitting around talking about being a firman and the pro script will open with the character in the middle of his job. When you develop character, that character let's say is the town drunk. The town drunk has actions he/she takes to be the town drunk. They probably drive drunk. They probably drink on the job. They probably have to hide how much they drink sometimes. Drinking may influence other vices like sex, gambling, drugs, violence. That character should be living their life whatever that is, not talking about life.

              Someone should start a scene workshop in the development or the contests section. You wanna stand out from nearly every other budding writer out there? Learn how to write a good scene. Jack Nicholson once said he'd do any script that had three great scenes and no bad ones. As soon as the agent, or contest judge, or manager read one bad scene right out of the gate and you're cooked. Right away their expectation drops and you are now on a page count to be put down. No one told me that. It's just what I think.

              Come out of the gate with scenes being focused on the actions of the character you spent all that time creating. We all take actions to live our lives your character does to. Scenes need to be short, punchy, snappy, hit that beat of the scene that is like "the" beat, the reason you got the mother humper in the structure point and go. Hit it in the course of action.

              The question is, let's say you are writing a script about a psychological thriller about a FBI/Serial Killer type thing. The FBI dude isn't introduced to this killer and his crimes till about 15 pages in. So, what is the first 15 about then? I think amateurs fill it with nonsense. An amateur thinks "I have to cram as much information as I can about backstory in now so I can reference them later." You couldn't take a worse approach, IMO. Backstory is one of those things that make a writer cringe. You do it when you have to. You hope you've built enough tension and intrigue around the character's story to the point that the reader can't wait to hear it. The technique in which it is delivered is everything. I mean, and I'm sure agents and manager's know in 5 pages if they are dealing with a writer or a wannabe. You can't hide bad technique. From page one you are in scenes trying to execute the best way you know how. So right out of the gate these people whose job it is to read scripts and hand pick the ones they feel are good are gonna know that they are not in the hands of someone good enough at the craft yet.

              There's someone here on the boards that takes issue with me when I use the word "beginner". They think it is humiliating to do. Look, I'm sure it does sting a little. And there's nothing wrong with it. We've all started there, new writers start there every day, there's people who think they are not there but are.

              I can either let you go on looking up that list of agents/manger/producers as you write this script. Talk about querying or maybe placing in the Nichol. I'm sure people let me go plenty. Or, I can try and wake you up. Raise awareness of where you are and why you are there. Open your eyes. I want to be specific and give examples and challenge you to do better and you will do better. You will. You think you love your writing now? Go get half way decent at writing scenes and then come back to me and tell me if it was worth it.

              Beginners do the things I talked about in this post. To the T. Writers that know nothing of each other yet all write in the same style. I did too. We all did. And it's ok to do especially early on. You may not have the characters actions out of the gate so you put him in a conversation with a clerk at the store. That's ok as long as you know there's no way this scene will be in the finished product it is just here for me to learn about the character and develop a POV. Beginners wanna hold onto those scenes for dear life after the draft is done. They think that's the story, not them trying to figure out plot and character.

              And I understand that some writers like to come up with all the beats of the story first before they start writing. And I say just because you put a list together like:

              1 - my hero finds out his mother died and has to fly to Chicago

              2 - On the plane, the Stewardess is a woman he once dated in high school

              3 - During drink service, she sets down his drink with a napkin. Written on the napkin is "I need your help. I'm in danger."

              Just because you develop this list doesn't mean that the scenes are gonna be any good. I don't care if you took time to plot the beats ahead of time or not. If plotting the beats ahead of time was the big secret in being a great writer I'm pretty sure we'd all know. Script fail at the same rate of those who plot ahead of time and those who don't. It's a tool to get the story out and flesh it out and expand it. You can do the same thing doing actually writing. Some will argue a better job. That's neither here nor there when judging if a scene works or it does not. I can sit here and come up with beat sheets all day. Turning a story, revealing character, or placing a reversal is one thing to do on a beat sheet. It's a totally different ball game doing it in the script. One involves just the thought. One involves the thought and the technique. Remember you can not hide bad technique. So, if you wanna write higher quality material, which I'm sure we all do, we have to work on our technique.

              You can debate content and subject matter all day and night. There is no debate about bad technique. You can't write an expository scene with chunks of backstory and then debate it's merits.

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              • #37
                Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                A few people have reached out and asked me to read their scripts. I gave the script reading/service thing a go once. Except, i didn't want to do the ole read the script then write up some notes and have that be the product. I wanted to help develop ideas and implement them. The notes were just step 1 in the process. I spent the next couple weeks emailing ideas back and forth and developing ideas on how the script can be made better. Then they would go back and try to execute said ideas. Sometimes I'd rewrite them just to give them examples. I think the chances of a sheet of notes helping most people are slim to none. I remember after I wrote my first screenplay, I sent it off to Craig Kellem. Some of you may know who that is, if you don't he's kinda a pseudo manager that reads scripts for money and offers feedback but really he is looking for material. I don't know if he is still around or not. I remember I paid him over $100, I don't remember the exact cost but I sent him off the hard copy of the script and then he mailed it back to me with his notes and comments. That was followed by a 15 min phone call where I can ask questions and we can discuss his notes. I remember he hit me with all the beginner lines. Show don't tell. Make your hero more likeable. Amp up the conflict. Need to develop the antagonist. In our phone call, he quickly went over his notes and then said goodbye. Looking back, that script was a first draft that I trudged through and it was full of under developed thoughts and poor execution. What the f@ck could Craig Kellem told me to make it better??? Nothing. Zero. Why? Cause I had no idea how to do better.

                I urge you to go through your scripts with a critical eye. Is your hero having conversation after conversation dropping hints as to their problems or their POV? Do you have lots of long dialogue exchanges? Your hero should be making actions in each scene big and small. It could be to make breakfast for his kids or it could be to disarm a bomb. Each action should face some push back by an antagonistic force. If you can write 60 scenes that do that and also have a through line then you are now heading in the right direction.

                If you read through your script and can't recognize what I am talking about, then read more great scripts and reverse engineer outlines. Take notes. Demand better of yourself. You know characters sitting around talking is not good story. You know. Be hard on yourself and don't be afraid to start over. You won't write anything worse the second time. It will only be better.

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                • #38
                  Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                  I recently added a blog to my website. One of my initial posts is "5 Key Plot Points to Write a Great Story." It's a guide to major plot point structure with movie examples. In case someone wants something quick and easy to digest.

                  I'll be adding to the posts going forward. I've created a structure chart as well in GIMP.

                  Check it out if you're interested... https://www.lisamolusis.com/post/man...your-live-site
                  "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                  • #39
                    Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                    The question is: is the problem one of ignorance or one of expertise?

                    Is it that amateur writers do not know that these plot points exist? Or is it that they can not organically make these points happen in their script effectively?

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                    • #40
                      Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                      I've read the last few posts in this thread. There is one screenwriting guy out there who does teach scene writing. I have taken his scene workshop, and it's changed the way I approach things. His name is Corey Mandell. When I've written about him online in the past (here, on reddit, on FB), I usually get two types of replies -- those who HATE him, think he's a load of ****, cite his Battlefield Earth movie, etc. And then I get replies from people who have taken his workshop and love him.

                      Corey maintains something like -- you'll make 80% of the mistakes in a scene that you make at the feature level, so why not stop writing features for awhile and cycle through writing scenes to identify mistakes and fix them at that smaller size. You can write 30-40 scenes in month, but only one feature. The other 20% of the endeavor is connecting scenes to a larger story. Learn that skill set after you've learned how to write scenes. That's Corey's "bottom up" methodology. Here he talks about it.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajjtHVd-WNw

                      Anyway, I agree with Cyfress. Most writers fail at the scene level. The focus on global story structure and plot points and all that comes AFTER the scene work. But 95-98% of writers don't clear the scene bar. So it turns into an exercise in turd polishing.
                      Last edited by lostfootage; 03-05-2020, 11:34 AM. Reason: Clunky grammar

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                      • #41
                        Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                        Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                        The question is: is the problem one of ignorance or one of expertise?

                        Is it that amateur writers do not know that these plot points exist? Or is it that they can not organically make these points happen in their script effectively?
                        Can't make them happen organically!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                          Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                          The question is: is the problem one of ignorance or one of expertise?

                          Is it that amateur writers do not know that these plot points exist? Or is it that they can not organically make these points happen in their script effectively?
                          I think the problem can be two-fold: 1) they know that plot points exist but don't keep them in mind when they're writing and 2) they indulge in scenes and character moments that do not directly relate to the main plot.

                          Both of these can prevent an organic story, because the focus is not about sticking to the story goal.

                          This is a down and dirty example of two stories where the goal is the same and the beat is the same but one serves the story goal and the other does not.

                          Ex#1
                          Your goal is to go from New York to LA as fast as possible. You decide to go to Alaska first to pick up a burger for lunch, because you're hungry and heard of this amazing restaurant. The divergent plot point of going to Alaska to get a burger does not serve the story goal of get to LA as fast as possible.

                          That is a derailed story. Moving on...

                          Ex #2
                          However, if you're in NY and your goal is to get to LA as soon as possible, but the airspace over the continental US is shutdown due to a volcanic eruption in Yellowstone (actually possible ), and your fastest route to LA available is to go to Alaska first-- then you go to Alaska first.

                          The change in plan to go to Alaska first is a direct result of an obstacle, but this plot point DOES serve the story goal, because goal remains the same-- to get to LA as fast as possible.

                          There is a very big difference between the two.
                          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                          • #43
                            Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                            I never heard of Corey Mandel. But Battlefield Earth is notorious for being a bad film. I never saw it. Because a film doesn't land with its audience doesn't mean the writer is a bad writer. Sometimes the fruition from page to screen just doesn't come together.

                            I think budding writers look at scenes at vehicles for relaying information to the reader. What's the easiest way to relay information in a script? Dialogue. And whether you know it or not you are going to choose the path of least resistance until you make a conscious effort not to.

                            Scenes are vehicles for creating story magic. A progression is happening, character is being enriched. An action is being taken. Some kind of magic had to happen. Something that draws the readers attention and something that further builds the story. The relaying of the information happens in the magic. There has to be "something- about every scene.

                            Too much emphasis has been put on the macro details of formulating a script. Screenplays are first hand accounts of life not second. We're following someone living life, not listening to someone talk about life.

                            The hard work comes in after the broad strokes are there.

                            I have just started outlining a project, my first in quite some time. Revisiting DD brought the big back.

                            It's a Det/Serial Killer psychological thriller. I wrote a half a** draft like 8 years ago. But I am starting from scratch. I already know what the inciting incident is. I know what is gonna glue my character to the plot. I hopefully have a twist in the middle that will make the reader say wow. I know what the Det will uncover to make it the lowest of the low for him and I think I have a pretty good twist at the end which this genre is known for. I sent that first draft off to Nichol and it made the semis. I have no idea how. It was so dreadful. I think somehow I managed to get them with the ending. But now I have to create a chain of scenes where this Det is actively pursuing this killer plus all the while the layers are peeling off the Det and the reader is getting to understand him. I forgot what kind of ball busting work this is. I'm almost ready to give up.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                              Originally posted by lostfootage View Post
                              Corey maintains something like -- you'll make 80% of the mistakes in a scene that you make at the feature level, so why not stop writing features for awhile and cycle through writing scenes to identify mistakes and fix them at that smaller size. You can write 30-40 scenes in month, but only one feature. The other 20% of the endeavor is connecting scenes to a larger story. Learn that skill set after you've learned how to write scenes. That's Corey's "bottom up" methodology.
                              FWIW, if you write one feature in a month, you're still writing 30-40 scenes, and you're practicing all the other skills necessary to improve as a writer. I don't think the "larger story" is where 20% of the mistakes happen - I'd argue a serious flaw with the larger story (plot, theme, character, etc) dooms a screenplay before you write one scene.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                                When Jeff returns to post something on these boards, you know the virus sitch is for real...

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