Plot Point 2

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  • Re: Plot Point 2

    Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
    Both.

    But did you understand why I posted it? Because neither of the things you mentioned have anything to do with the topic.
    That particular paragraph just kind of jumped out at me, and my intuition told me to steer the topic in that direction (see what I did there?).

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    Gurus charge writers and teach them everything but voice. It's why the whole "make money off of amateur writers" industry is so worthless and corrupt, IMO.
    "You can't teach height," to borrow a saying from another field altogether.

    Comment


    • Re: Plot Point 2

      In his famous "Screenwriting Tips," Billy Wilder never mentioned plot points or reversals or climaxes. What he recommended were rules like "Grab 'em by the throat and never let 'em go," "Develop a clean line of action for your leading character," "Know where you're going." Do those things, as well as the other 7 tips he provided, and nothing Blake Snyder or Syd Field said will matter for squat -- but you'll have a solid script.
      Or follow John August's simple guidance on structure: "What's the next thing this character would realistically do? What's the most interesting this character could do? Where do I want the story to go from here? What are the later repercussions of this scene and how can I maximize them?"
      Different rules, but same result.
      And much of it, as others have said, has to do with creative instincts, not rules set in stone by gurus. Although I admire some of what Snyder has to say, it's absurd to say that X or Y MUST happen on page 25 or 85 in a 110-page script.
      If it were that easy, we'd all be rich.

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      • Re: Plot Point 2

        Billy Wilders 10 screenwriting tips...
        The audience is fickle.

        Grab 'em by the throat and never let 'em go.

        Develop a clean line of action for your leading character.

        Know where you're going.

        The more subtle and elegant you are in hiding your plot points, the better you are as a writer.

        If you have a problem with the third act, the real problem is in the first act.

        A tip from Lubitsch: Let the audience add up two plus two. They'll love you forever.

        In doing voice-overs, be careful not to describe what the audience already sees. Add to what they're seeing.

        The event that occurs at the second act curtain triggers the end of the movie.

        The third act must build, build, build in tempo and action until the last event, and then-that's it. Don't hang around.
        Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

        Comment


        • Re: Plot Point 2

          Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
          Billy Wilders 10 screenwriting tips...


          Know where you’re going.

          If you have a problem with the third act, the real problem is in the first act.

          The event that occurs at the second act curtain triggers the end of the movie.

          The third act must build, build, build in tempo and action until the last event, and then—that’s it. Don’t hang around.
          I have never read or seen that before.

          Sounds a lot like many things I have been saying on here for the last seven years.

          And correct me if I'm wrong, but "Know where you're going" sure sounds like an outline and knowing your plot points to me.

          Jeff Shurtleff
          "Some men see things the way they are and say why? I see things that never were and say, why not?"

          http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...4669871&v=info

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          • Re: Plot Point 2

            Originally posted by Jeff_Shurtleff View Post
            And correct me if I'm wrong, but "Know where you're going" sure sounds like an outline and knowing your plot points to me.
            I don't think you need a detailed outline to "know where you're going." He didn't say, "Know every step you're going to take." Just don't go in with only a concept. You need to know where you're headed. That doesn't mean you need to know every beat of the story.

            Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
            The more subtle and elegant you are in hiding your plot points, the better you are as a writer.
            This jumped out at me. And I think this relates to this discussion. In my own opinion, when you sit down and plot out the entire story in a paint-by-numbers, "this should go here" method, your script can feel too rigid... like each beat is magnified or too noticeable.

            ... Just my opinion though.
            Last edited by ATB; 01-19-2012, 10:49 PM.

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            • Re: Plot Point 2

              If you know it's a plot point, and know you need to hide it - that's planning ahead of writing.

              My theory is - the more you plan, the better you can make things look unplanned. When you write off the top of your head - I can often see the gears turning because I am watching you make it up. Not like a magician who performs magic because he knows exactly how the illusion works and has practiced it a million times so that the "trick" is invisible and all you see is the magic. If you haven't planned it, I'm watching you fumble around for the damned rabbit in the hat. How the hell does it come out of there?

              But - all that matters are results. If you can wing it and make it work, great.

              PS: Because my first produced script was 4 years before Syd Field's book - I learned how to write scripts by reading them and reading interviews with writers and directors... and the writers in those interviews saw the three act structure as a *creative tool*. I think the idea that it's a critical tool used after a script is written is a backlash against Field (etc). All of those great Hollywood films made before 1984 were *created* using the three act structure and all of that other stuff everyone rebels against today.

              - Bill
              Free Script Tips:
              http://www.scriptsecrets.net

              Comment


              • Re: Plot Point 2

                No one's saying you shouldn't know your plot. You should. I believe in outlining and "knowing where you're going."

                But there's a massive difference between "knowing your story" and "there must be a plot event of a particular type and function at this specific point in the story."

                You guys who cling to these things... you're like castaways bobbing around in the ocean, hanging on to that piece of driftwood. PLOT POINT 2!!! That will make this script function!

                No.

                It won't.

                You don't think every single piece of crap I get sent to rewrite has "plot point 2" in it? You don't think they all have a "low point" and a "refusal of the call" and a hundred other tropes?

                These things are tools, not solutions.

                I will tell you this: if you talk about screenwriting to producers, actors, directors or executives the way some of you talk about it in here, you will get laughed out of the room.

                Comment


                • Re: Plot Point 2

                  I have to agree with Bill. What I don't get is why so many people seem to think that outlining is somehow anti-creative. To me, writing without an outline or advance planning is anti-creative.

                  Outlining allows me to invent the story in a non-linear, right-brained way. I create these odd little diagrams with arrows pointing this way and that way, jotting down ideas and pieces of dialogue in random order. It's all wonderfully messy and incoherent. After I screw around like this awhile, then I can start trying to get it all to make sense.

                  I just find that things go better when I separate the process into stages: first, I look at the story in a bird's-eye view (outline), then I work out the little details (script).

                  If I write without an outline, I keep tripping over myself. The creative side of my brain keeps clashing with the ultra-logical OCD-ish side that says things like, "Where's all this going?" and "You need a comma there, jerk." I end up trying to do too much all at once.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Plot Point 2

                    Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                    You don't think every single piece of crap I get sent to rewrite has "plot point 2" in it? You don't think they all have a "low point" and a "refusal of the call" and a hundred other tropes?
                    If all these pieces of crap are sold specs--i.e., scripts that have attracted interest--then you may have just accidentally scored a point for the other side. Just a thought.

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                    • Re: Plot Point 2

                      If all you want to do is sell one script and disappear, then yes. Guilty as charged.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Plot Point 2

                        Originally posted by MrZero View Post
                        I have to agree with Bill. What I don't get is why so many people seem to think that outlining is somehow anti-creative. To me, writing without an outline or advance planning is anti-creative.
                        I don't think anyone is saying don't outline. The discussion evolved from the original post which posed this question:

                        Originally posted by ricther View Post
                        My question is does plot point 2 have to be a low point where all hope is lost? .
                        The idea that a plot point "has to" be X or Y is straight out of the guru books. It's limiting in my opinion. Yes, you need to know your plot. Yes, your plot moves the story forward. But the idea that there are ironclad rules about what those plot points must be is misleading. There have been discussions here of iconic films in which several talented people couldn't agree on what event served as the midpoint or what event constituted the catalyst. Someone upthread stated, in Baby Boom, the end of act 1 was the lead's move to the country when that's actually the midpoint. Why is that?

                        When we follow those guru rules it can, in my experience, dictate story and inhibit possibilities.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                        Comment


                        • Re: Plot Point 2

                          Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
                          Billy Wilders 10 screenwriting tips...
                          The audience is fickle.

                          Grab 'em by the throat and never let 'em go.

                          Develop a clean line of action for your leading character.

                          Know where you're going.

                          The more subtle and elegant you are in hiding your plot points, the better you are as a writer.

                          If you have a problem with the third act, the real problem is in the first act.

                          A tip from Lubitsch: Let the audience add up two plus two. They'll love you forever.

                          In doing voice-overs, be careful not to describe what the audience already sees. Add to what they're seeing.

                          The event that occurs at the second act curtain triggers the end of the movie.

                          The third act must build, build, build in tempo and action until the last event, and then-that's it. Don't hang around.
                          The argument around here lately seems to be that any talk of how stories are constructed is bunk. That all you need to do is follow your intuition. It's clear from the above that Billy Wilder had a clear understanding of structure. That he knew exactly how a story works. He was a craftsman.

                          The best writers fly by the seat of the pants when they're trying to create, but they're also able to put on their analytic hats when it serves their purpose. Without all that "no rules" crap.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Plot Point 2

                            I really don't think anyone was saying that you don't have to know about construction or structure or that all you have to do is rely on intuition (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing). Screenplays are all about construction. But I just think that there are hundreds if not thousands of decisions, both conscious and unconscious that you're making while creating a screenplay. And I think that, when you're in trouble, intuition will guide you in a way that some structural paradigm will not, and probably cannot. There's just too much to navigate. That's why I think Intuition is all you really have.

                            I think this whole conversation is basically funneling it's way down to what Koppelman and others have been saying here all along. "Calculate Less."

                            Comment


                            • Re: Plot Point 2

                              Originally posted by altoption View Post
                              The argument around here lately seems to be that any talk of how stories are constructed is bunk. That all you need to do is follow your intuition.
                              Haven't heard one person say that.

                              The best writers fly by the seat of the pants when they're trying to create, but they're also able to put on their analytic hats when it serves their purpose. Without all that "no rules" crap.
                              Having a good understanding of structure (which I believe that the overwhelming percentage of pros do) doesn't mean that you believe there are "rules" about how and when to apply it.

                              "No rules" is a really good thought to keep in one's head when sitting down to create something.

                              IMO, the people who teach or quote rules are trying to find a writing paradigm that is a fail proof replacement for a lack of skill. It doesn't exist.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Plot Point 2

                                Originally posted by omovie View Post
                                I really don't think anyone was saying that you don't have to know about construction or structure or that all you have to do is rely on intuition (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing). Screenplays are all about construction. But I just think that there are hundreds if not thousands of decisions, both conscious and unconscious that you're making while creating a screenplay. And I think that, when you're in trouble, intuition will guide you in a way that some structural paradigm will not, and probably cannot. There's just too much to navigate. That's why I think Intuition is all you really have.

                                I think this whole conversation is basically funneling it's way down to what Koppelman and others have been saying here all along. "Calculate Less."
                                So, your advice to Wilder when he's developing his character's line of action is to calculate less? You say "Screenplays are about construction," then you contradict yourself by saying intuition is all you have. My point is that the best writers, like Wilder, do both. They do the dance between right brain/left brain.

                                Understanding structure is valuable, but you need to know how to get it the hell out of the way so it doesn't fvck up the creative process. That's different than saying calculate less.

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