Plot Point 2

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  • #91
    Re: Plot Point 2

    Originally posted by nic.h View Post
    And/or funny. Juno, case in point.
    Cough cough....

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    • #92
      Re: Plot Point 2

      Originally posted by Paradis View Post
      Cough cough....
      A LOT of people thought Juno was funny, even if you didn't. Humour is subjective, perhaps more than any other of our sensibilities. You can't argue with the numbers, either way.
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      • #93
        Re: Plot Point 2

        I liked Juno

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        • #94
          Re: Plot Point 2

          So did I.
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          • #95
            Re: Plot Point 2

            Originally posted by nic.h View Post
            A LOT of people thought Juno was funny,
            I liked Juno. I don't know if it was mostly good writing, good acting or good direction, but it worked -- at least it did in my opinion. I can see where a Juno copycat script/movie could get really tedious, really quickly, however.
            STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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            • #96
              Re: Plot Point 2

              I'm gonna jump back on track to the plot point 2 question,

              The whole deal with the gurus and plot point 2 is essentially this,

              In Act 2 your protagonist goes through several obstacles, some are minor successes, others are minor failures.

              To really pump up the drama, it's suggested that you hit your protagonist with their biggest failure (plot point 2) before they finally hit their biggest success (the climax).

              That's all it is.

              You see this formula in a lot of movies because it's old-school story telling that's been around for centuries.

              To be honest, most of the guru stuff I've read only made story telling more confusing. Far too occupied with structure and rules and not enough emphasis on natural dramatic flow, or as the pros would say, go with your gut.
              Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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              • #97
                Re: Plot Point 2

                Every post in this thread is wrong, reharshed guru-ism.

                NOW FOR 39.99 YOU CAN LEARN THE TRUE WAY TO WRITE A SCREENPLAY IN 30 DAYS.

                But seriously: When studying films, I've been unable to see which point is the second plot point. Sometimes it seems like the point where all is lost, other times it seems like the point where the hero says "I'm going to fight back".

                In the second act of The Matrix, people die, the agents are on to them, there's a traitor, and Morpheus is captures. I'm pretty sure the second plot point is Neo deciding to rescue Morpheus, his decision to finish the fight as it were. It's the hero deciding to face his final battle, maybe something he's been putting off or running from.
                what the head makes cloudy the heart makes very clear

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                • #98
                  Re: Plot Point 2

                  This thread somehow turned into 'analysis vs gut instinct' which is a shame. It's not about one or the other. You almost always use both in SWing.

                  IMO, the whole "Plot Point 1, 2, etc..." came out of ppl wanting to TEACH screenwriting. A screenplay is a complicated, sometimes mysterious thing, & they wanted to make writing them a little easier.

                  The point of teaching plot points & beats & sequences (or analytical theory in general) to students isn't to stifle their creativity, it's to give them a firm foundation to launch their creativity.

                  An art teacher doesn't teach about color, composition & line & tells you to go study Des Demoiselles d'Avignon thinking this is too rigid or analytical.

                  When teaching screenwriting, the advice "use your gut" is a little too vague. Students need something more concrete. This is born out by all the books, classes & sites that are out there on SWing.

                  I think there's still a hunger for a more concrete, nuts & bolts way of teaching SWing... yeah, even a more "rigid" (if you want to call it that), method-based system, which is one of the reasons Snyder's book became so popular.

                  "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                  ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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                  • #99
                    Re: Plot Point 2

                    I think there's still a hunger for a more concrete, nuts & bolts way of teaching SWing... yeah, even a more "rigid" (if you want to call it that), method-based system, which is one of the reasons Snyder's book became so popular.
                    But it's mostly amateurs who want this because they are looking for a step by step how to book. Something that breaks it all down for them. All they have to do is follow the 12 step fill in the blank template.

                    That might work for some.

                    I can only speak for myself and it didn't work for me.

                    What did work for me was tossing aside the guru stuff and just writing what felt right.

                    Now, when I sit back and analyse my work I can see some of the traditional, or guru, structures in my work but it happened organically.

                    Yeah, there's the standard ordinary world intro stuff then something happens to rock the protags world, maybe the protag resists, maybe not, or maybe the protag doesn't have a choice. After that is a series of obstacles, some end well, others don't etc... when the protag has almost reached his goal it's fun to knock him down to his lowest point before finally letting him blow his wad at the end.

                    You can take that and break it down into any of the gurus templates but the thing is I never think about those templates. I'm never trying to fill in a certain beat just to check something off a list, I just roll with it and go with my gut and with what I think would be cool.

                    When I'm writing, or outlining, I'm thinking about obstacles, drama and conflict and more importantly, ****ing with my characters lives to make things interesting. A long list of bullshit I run them through to reach the end of the rainbow. <-- where a hoard of zombies awaits them.

                    That's just me. And it might be better for your career to ignore me.
                    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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                    • Re: Plot Point 2

                      Originally posted by Kwinnky View Post
                      But seriously: When studying films, I've been unable to see which point is the second plot point. Sometimes it seems like the point where all is lost, other times it seems like the point where the hero says "I'm going to fight back".

                      In the second act of The Matrix, people die, the agents are on to them, there's a traitor, and Morpheus is captures. I'm pretty sure the second plot point is Neo deciding to rescue Morpheus, his decision to finish the fight as it were. It's the hero deciding to face his final battle, maybe something he's been putting off or running from.
                      The second plot point, or break in to Act 3, almost always follows a story beat where everything seems hopeless. Morpheus gets captured. Ben Kenobi dies. Marlon believes that Nemo has died and drives off Dory. Quint burns out the engine and the boat's sinking. Batman fails to save Rachel or very much of Harvey Dent. The villagers betray the magnificent seven. And so forth. At his lowest point, the protagonist faces his fatal flaw, and, now able to see things clearly, comes up with a new plan that spins us into Act 3 - often taking the fight to the enemy.

                      So the two beats are frequently linked, but it's usually the turning point or new plan that marks the start of Act 3. Of course, this is just a generalization, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of movies that don't match up to this. And I'm not stating this as some inviolable law of screenwriting, either. It's just one way a lot of stories seem to work.
                      Patrick Sweeney

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                      • Re: Plot Point 2

                        I rely on intuition when I'm writing. I use analysis to help figure out what my intuition's trying to tell me - "something's out of whack here" is useful information, but it doesn't go a long way toward coming up with a solution. But I'm just some guy banging out unsold specs.
                        Patrick Sweeney

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                        • Re: Plot Point 2

                          My first script was an adaptation of my unfinished novel. This was written at the suggestion of my best friend (she later gave up screenwriting). I had not read any guru books & knew nothing about plot points -- only read three or four produced scripts.

                          After completing it, I did read Syd Field. And I went back to find - surprise - the plot points, the acts, were right where they were supposed to be. Apparently, I internalized structure from watching (loving) films and pulled it off intuitively.

                          Then I went on a guru-book reading frenzy. And I have never been able to get back to that intuitive place. The books really messed me up. I'm always second guessing myself.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                          • Re: Plot Point 2

                            Okay, I've sat on the sideline long enough.

                            As far as I'm concerned, plot point two occurs around page 60 to 65. It's a major event that turns the story in a new way and increases the urgency for the protagonist. Usually it will create a time clock and drive the protag forward in the third act. Their actions will be consumed with solving the dilemma, which occurs at the climax. Page 90 to 95.

                            I've seen a lot of bashing of the gurus and how you really don't need to follow the rules or structure. BS.

                            My second manager (I use that term loosely) was a reader at Bender Spink. They told him to read the book "Making a Good Script Great" by Linda Seger and told him to look for scripts that fell into that format.

                            Think I'm wrong? Watch any high concept film that's 100 pages/minutes long with a clock. Pay attention to what happens at page 10, 15, 30, 60, 90, 95.

                            I love to sit with people and watch movies. I can point out everything that's happening.

                            I'm not saying it can't be don't other ways, but most high concept 100 page scripts fall into very strict page numbers and guidelines.

                            I'm always surprised when these kind of arguments come up because it seems so obvious to me when I watch films.

                            Jeff Shurtleff
                            "Some men see things the way they are and say why? I see things that never were and say, why not?"

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                            • Re: Plot Point 2

                              I can't believe you aren't writing hit screenplays twice a year with that kind of confidence in your foolproof system.

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                              • Re: Plot Point 2

                                Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                                Then I went on a guru-book reading frenzy. And I have never been able to get back to that intuitive place. The books really messed me up. I'm always second guessing myself.
                                If I see another guru book I vomit. Goiod to be past that stage. There's nothing that will "unmess" me like reading an okay script that went on to become the blueprint for a blockbuster. Somehow I'm not as analytical after that.
                                "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
                                - Screenwriting Friend

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