Plough through or correct as you go?

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  • #31
    Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

    Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
    I felt the same and tried to move the thread on. I mean, if you think the entire point of the thread is pointless then don't enter. I'm guessing most of his digs were at Cyfress, and I get why, but everyone knows to take Cy with a ton of salt so why bother entering the thread just to smash plates and kick the dog?

    As for the pro writer's process, SC, I'm pretty sure that Jeff was taking the piss.
    Whether or not Bono was aiming his digs at Cyfress, I agree with your point: "...why bother entering the thread just to smash plates and kick the dog?"

    As for your take on Jeff's "24 hours" comment, I believe him, based on my own experience.

    Back when I had a rep, he went out with two of my scripts in the same year. The second one had more traction than the first but alas 'considers' turned into passes.

    As is my process, I did the correct/polish-as -I-go thing and sent what I considered was my first draft to my rep for his feedback. I fully intended to do a second pass and wanted his notes before I started the process.

    He emails me saying he not only loved it, he sent it to some contacts "unofficially" including an agent.

    I had a panic attack. In no way did I think that first draft was ready for other sets of eyes. He told me to relax -- the script was solid and read like a final draft.

    The agent liked the script so much she hip-pocketed me. The script went wide, got studio coverage, and had more interest than the first one. And one studio gave a 'recommend writer' even though it was only a 'consider' on the script.

    Again -- it was my first draft. The product of the correct/polish as I go approach. I've never done a second pass on that script.

    As a result, and based on my own experience, I know Bono is wrong in his proclamation that using this method would result in a mess.
    Last edited by sc111; 06-13-2020, 12:50 PM. Reason: typo
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

      That's great and I've had first drafts do well too. I never said otherwise. You and a few others missed my point entirely.

      And for the record -- you both have entered threads and done the same thing. We all have. This is done deal.

      Anyway -- I will admit I posted in a manner to drum up a response -- much like a talk show host. I could have been nicer or less ambiguous -- but I was bored. I was not trying to be mean in any way though. I want that clear.

      I'm trying to help writers and sometimes make jokes and sometimes I'm just posting so people will respond so this forum isn't so quiet.

      And I believe Jeff and I agree with 99.9% of his post. I think it's 100% but leaving room. So you guys have missed that as well...

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

        Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
        Why do you think his digs are at me and why do you get it? And I hate salt. I love your passive aggressiveness though. I find it amusing.
        Welcome to the party!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

          Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
          I love your passive aggressiveness though.
          The last thing I am is passive-aggressive. I'm so direct and honest that some misinfer ill intent. Stating that I understand why someone would take digs at you is actually the opposite of passive-aggression - it's showing I'll point out the elephant in the room. Just because I didn't elaborate does't mean I was passive-aggressive, it just means you were an unimportant side issue and your rep makes explanation unnecessary.


          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
          As for your take on Jeff's "24 hours" comment, I believe him, based on my own experience.
          I was talking about his post as a whole: 'I know "writing is rewriting" is accepted wisdom, but it doesn't work for me......I'll usually start at the beginning each day......My first act has been polished fifty times ' This is my approach, and I write soooo slow, so I assumed it was the antithesis of what the pros do hence I read his post as mocking my OP. If I'm wrong then apologies (amidst amazement that my way is professionally viable).
          Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 06-13-2020, 12:18 PM.
          M.A.G.A.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

            Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
            What's a strong outline to you?
            I take a hybrid beat sheet (Vogler/Hague/Black) that I adapted for my own use. The major beats have targeted page counts, and between the major beats I allow three detail action beats for every five minute interval. So three 5-minute sections might sum up to a single sequence of about 15 pages. Each sequence could/would have its own beg/mid/end. Sometimes the three beats are one scene and sometimes they can be intercutting between two locations or more, if it's an action sequence.

            Outlines evolve. Each scene needs to have a function to connect a past part of the story to a future part of the story. They are not always sequential. With every new script my process gets stronger and my first draft is written faster. Rewriting teaches lessons to apply to the next script to improve efficiency and economy. For example, it's more efficient to have ONE SCENE achieve THREE functions/goals.

            I am more interested in exploring sequencing approach which is basically what I was already doing. To simplify what an 8 sequence technique means, you have two turns in each act, so: two in Act 1, two in act 2a, two in act 2b and two in act 3 which results in 8 sequences. Directors seem to use sequencing a lot. Since I am interested in directing, I thought it prudent to understand why it's popular.

            I have it in both Scrivner and FD10 software and find I actually feel I need both. I print a copy of my beats sheet that has 15 structure points listed and explained. I hand write in my in between beats as I work through story ideas. It's funny, because there are specific things I have to physically "write" as opposed to typing it in in the computer. I will rewrite several "drafts" as I refine it. Then as the story solidifies I commit it to the computer then print it out and start writing.

            I checked out the Save the Cat software and it's appealing, but when I found Scrivner I was much happier, because I can have all my huge files of research and videos all in ONE SINGLE FILE DOCUMENT. It's fabulous, but massive. I'll be transitioning to write novels as well.

            The process
            • Write a working logline.
            • Character work (Truby's 7 structure points) and research (this can take awhile depending on setting and genre)
            • High level 5 plot point turns worked out for A story
            • Move to 15 stage beat sheet (includes opening/closing image & theme) Typed so these are considered in every story.
            • Fill in the in between with action beats/dialogue/settings/set pieces


            I usually get to a point where I just have to start writing. Will be fighting that tendency in the future to make sure the back end of the outline is as strong as it can be. There is one very important aspect to keep in the forefront of your mind... write toward the outline, but never let it bind you to it. There are always things that you will find work better, are more exciting, and deliver a bigger punch as you are actually writing.

            Your outline is there to guide you. It is your first or second inclination. As you commit the story to paper during the writing process you will always be looking to elevate the story, make it more dynamic, entertaining and fulfilling.

            yeah, I know, tmi.
            "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

              Thanks,FA4. I'll need to re-read what you have just written before it sinks in and makes sense. Right now, though, whilst I can see how writing in such minutae allows you to breeze though your draft, it also seems like so much work that you're essentially writing the script twice and the thought of that makes me want to cry lol. It also doesn't solve my issue of staring-at-the-page because if I knew what to put in a heavily-detailed outline then I'd know what to put in the script and I wouldn't find myself killing time by constantly redoing the first 20 pages.

              In comparison, my most detailed outline was 15 lines - each line a major beat. I generally know my plot, CDA, characters, setting, inciting incident, Act breaks, midpoint and finish - though am not tied to any singular ending- topped off with a few scenes and lines.

              2 turns in each Act? Every script? Isn't that a tad formulaic?
              Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 06-13-2020, 01:19 PM.
              M.A.G.A.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                I take a hybrid beat sheet (Vogler/Hague/Black) that I adapted for my own use. The major beats have targeted page counts, and between the major beats I allow three detail action beats for every five minute interval. So three 5-minute sections might sum up to a single sequence of about 15 pages. Each sequence could/would have its own beg/mid/end. Sometimes the three beats are one scene and sometimes they can be intercutting between two locations or more, if it's an action sequence.

                Outlines evolve. Each scene needs to have a function to connect a past part of the story to a future part of the story. They are not always sequential. With every new script my process gets stronger and my first draft is written faster. Rewriting teaches lessons to apply to the next script to improve efficiency and economy. For example, it's more efficient to have ONE SCENE achieve THREE functions/goals.

                I am more interested in exploring sequencing approach which is basically what I was already doing. To simplify what an 8 sequence technique means, you have two turns in each act, so: two in Act 1, two in act 2a, two in act 2b and two in act 3 which results in 8 sequences. Directors seem to use sequencing a lot. Since I am interested in directing, I thought it prudent to understand why it's popular.

                I have it in both Scrivner and FD10 software and find I actually feel I need both. I print a copy of my beats sheet that has 15 structure points listed and explained. I hand write in my in between beats as I work through story ideas. It's funny, because there are specific things I have to physically "write" as opposed to typing it in in the computer. I will rewrite several "drafts" as I refine it. Then as the story solidifies I commit it to the computer then print it out and start writing.

                I checked out the Save the Cat software and it's appealing, but when I found Scrivner I was much happier, because I can have all my huge files of research and videos all in ONE SINGLE FILE DOCUMENT. It's fabulous, but massive. I'll be transitioning to write novels as well.

                The process
                • Write a working logline.
                • Character work (Truby's 7 structure points) and research (this can take awhile depending on setting and genre)
                • High level 5 plot point turns worked out for A story
                • Move to 15 stage beat sheet (includes opening/closing image & theme) Typed so these are considered in every story.
                • Fill in the in between with action beats/dialogue/settings/set pieces


                I usually get to a point where I just have to start writing. Will be fighting that tendency in the future to make sure the back end of the outline is as strong as it can be. There is one very important aspect to keep in the forefront of your mind... write toward the outline, but never let it bind you to it. There are always things that you will find work better, are more exciting, and deliver a bigger punch as you are actually writing.

                Your outline is there to guide you. It is your first or second inclination. As you commit the story to paper during the writing process you will always be looking to elevate the story, make it more dynamic, entertaining and fulfilling.

                yeah, I know, tmi.
                I was going to bring up sequencing in the 3-act thread then decided against opening that can of worms. I use the sequence method. For me, it's more organic.

                I admire your outlining discipline which I totally lack. I know have to get over my lifelong resistance to detailed outlines. It's not serving me well.

                Interesting that you do some of this work in longhand -- so do I. Character back stories, names, even my pathetic excuse for outlines which are just a bare bones punch list of beats -- usually handwritten away from my desk. Then typed up later in the file for the script.

                Your tenacity is awesome.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                  My rep. Lol. What's your rep? Miserable and off putting? What's my rep? You made a point on another thread to quote me and then say you and others "probably- stated that already so why did I waste my time and others. Funny you said others "probably- said it which means you don't know if they did or not which means you didn't ready anybody's post before submitting your own. Neither did I, yet you singled me out. Now you single me out again saying someone "must " be throwing digs at me. Maybe you shouldn't feel so confident that people aren't throwing digs at you, you lovable mild mannered person.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                    Originally posted by Cyfress
                    What’s my rep?
                    Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.

                    And if you know me so well then you know I'm far from passive-aggressive - undermining your previous assertion.

                    I wasn't confident that digs weren't aimed at me - which is why I saw Jeff's post as sarcasm.

                    If I believe comments are about you then it's due to previous comments made about and to you - hence your rep that you find so lol.

                    Now stop continuing the diverting of the thread.
                    Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 06-13-2020, 01:32 PM.
                    M.A.G.A.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                      I guess singling someone out in an attempt to undermine their credibility is no longer passive aggressive in 2020. You're so transparent and you pretend to be so opaque. I never single you out. I never mention you or think about you, yet you seem to not be able to get me off your mind. Maybe you like me.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                        Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                        Thanks,FA4. I'll need to re-read what you have just written before it sinks in and makes sense.
                        Maybe you should skip the re-reading-- it doesn't seem like your thing.

                        Right now, though, whilst I can see how writing in such minutae allows you to breeze though your draft, it also seems like so much work that you're essentially writing the script twice and the thought of that makes me want to cry lol.
                        It's writing with organization and focus to the spine of the story. Minutia is writing trivial detail. Not the same at all, so your comment is slightly off putting.

                        I outline what I need in order to write the script. You mistakenly assuming it's a lot of work. It's not. It's necessary work I do to avoid derailed stories, divergent subplots and writing yourself into a corner you can't write yourself out of--

                        It's no where near the same as writing the script twice. That's an excuse to not do something. It's also an over exaggeration. For me, good outline results in a far better first draft and a lot less rewriting.

                        And honestly, I don't have the patience for the wasted effort and time it takes to fix a story problem that wasn't well thought through, when a good outline would have kept the story on spine.

                        It also doesn't solve my issue of staring-at-the-page because if I knew what to put in a heavily-detailed outline then I'd know what to put in the script and I wouldn't find myself killing time by constantly redoing the first 20 pages.
                        Can't help you with the blank page, that happens to all of us. I'm not really sure what you're saying about "redoing the first 20 pages." For me, if I can't get past the first 20 pages, that signals that I don't really know where the story goes. Certain things have to happen to get to the next turning point. I could be wrong but it sounds like you're afraid to try using an outline.

                        You use negative words like "minutia" and "heavily-detailed" and "writing it twice," which makes it seem like you're afraid you're going to waste valuable time writing an outline, and if that's the case, I get it. I used to feel that way, too, until I wrote a clear outline and pumped out a strong first draft in ten 12 hour days. The second time I did it in the same amount of time, so I'm not changing. Everyone has a different process.

                        And if that's not the case. My bad.

                        In comparison, my most detailed outline was 15 lines - each line a major beat. I generally know my plot, CDA, characters, setting, inciting incident, Act breaks, midpoint and finish - though am not tied to any singular ending- topped off with a few scenes and lines.
                        And you think that's somehow NOT formulaic? It's all formulaic from a structure standpoint, but every story is telling a different story. That's the part that makes them unique.

                        2 turns in each Act? Every script? Isn't that a tad formulaic?
                        What do you care if it's formulaic or not, if it works? You say "formulaic" as if it somehow diminishes the creative process. We're talking about the foundation of the story. The stronger your foundation the better your story. Period.

                        You asked a question and I answered it. I don't concern myself with what others do, I care what works for me.

                        And, no, I don't find it a "tad" formulaic. It keeps the story moving and changing, so the audience isn't bored with tireless drivel.

                        Every reversal in an action sequence is a turn. Films are chock full of turns, that's what makes them interesting to watch. Have you read a Bourne script?

                        I've heard of working writers whose outlines are almost as long as the script itself-- if it works for them, more power to them.

                        And, btw, if your process works well for you, that's all that matters for you. Keep at it.
                        "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                          Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                          Whether or not Bono was aiming his digs at Cyfress, I agree with your point: "...why bother entering the thread just to smash plates and kick the dog?"

                          As for your take on Jeff's "24 hours" comment, I believe him, based on my own experience.

                          Back when I had a rep, he went out with two of my scripts in the same year. The second one had more traction than the first but alas 'considers' turned into passes.

                          As is my process, I did the correct/polish-as -I-go thing and sent what I considered was my first draft to my rep for his feedback. I fully intended to do a second pass and wanted his notes before I started the process.

                          He emails me saying he not only loved it, he sent it to some contacts "unofficially" including an agent.

                          I had a panic attack. In no way did I think that first draft was ready for other sets of eyes. He told me to relax -- the script was solid and read like a final draft.

                          The agent liked the script so much she hip-pocketed me. The script went wide, got studio coverage, and had more interest than the first one. And one studio gave a 'recommend writer' even though it was only a 'consider' on the script.

                          Again -- it was my first draft. The product of the correct/polish as I go approach. I've never done a second pass on that script.

                          As a result, and based on my own experience, I know Bono is wrong in his proclamation that using this method would result in a mess.
                          +1
                          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                            Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                            I've heard of working writers whose outlines are almost as long as the script itself-- if it works for them, more power to them.
                            My outlines could be almost as long as the script if I chose to make them so (they aren’t, though). The outline process is productive for me because it’s unrestrictive; I can elaborate on the action, feeling, or emotion I want from each beat or scene. These I have to pare down later on because there’s no way when writing the script I could recall all the subtle details that strike me as I hammer out an outline. The outline is a great reference if only for that reason.

                            In the outline, some beats or scene descriptions speak volumes with few words, while others need more description to help me later. In that way, the outline is less than a script, but still its equal, although not necessarily in page count.
                            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                              Interesting how other peoples' brains work.

                              I write scenes by hand until I've written about 50 percent of the script, before I start typing anything. I always write out of sequence. I use the most basic of outlines.

                              I start hearing the dialogue before anything else, before I have an actual plot, even. The relationships, what they sound like, what their attitude is towards their wife/husband/kids/boss -- I have that before a plot. I often have to force myself to keep the dialogue at bay until I can discover concretely what sort of script I'm writing. On the other hand, if I can't hear the character talking, I know I'll never finish the script.

                              I do 3-4 drafts before I can tell if it's actually something. Sometimes I write 80 pages and realize there isn't enough "there" there, so I stop and try to write something else.

                              I've tried to plot extensively before. It simply does not work for me. I'm amazed at the people in this thread that start at page one and write in sequential order, through to the end. There is no way I could ever do that.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Plough through or correct as you go?

                                Originally posted by figment View Post
                                Interesting how other peoples' brains work.
                                Deffo.


                                I write scenes by hand until I've written about 50 percent of the script, before I start typing anything.
                                I'm sure Stephen King does, or did, something similar?


                                I always write out of sequence.
                                Can you provide more detail?


                                I've tried to plot extensively before. It simply does not work for me.
                                Same here, though I'm sure it would benefit - hence my OP and hence my asking people about their stated process.
                                M.A.G.A.

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