Black List Score Patterns

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  • #31
    Re: Black List Score Patterns

    +2
    We gain our innocence by taking yours.

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    • #32
      Re: Black List Score Patterns

      Originally posted by figment
      I think it'd be wise to be suspicious of every reader's opinions, even if they are glowing, about any script you write because -- they are opinions. That has nothing to do with the BL specifically. Even with Nicholl, writers make the semi's one year and get nothing the next with the same script.

      Does it mean their script is suddenly garbage? No, just means that readers are vastly different. Some don't get your script. Some do.
      Exactly! Hence my original post. If <4% get +3 disparity then there is no issue with the scoring system (which is what the OP was implying) and so 10, 20 or even 50 'ayes' doesn't change that. Even 100 out of 10000+ scripts is a drop in the ocean. And as you said, taste varies from person to person.
      Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 01-14-2014, 12:10 PM.
      M.A.G.A.

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      • #33
        Re: Black List Score Patterns

        The issue isn't the polarisation/variation. It's being ranked based on an average score. I'm not saying it's wrong, it just sucks, it really really sucks. Especially when it's your scripts average that gets dragged down. It's very hard not to feel put out. It's very hard not to feel unlucky.
        Script Revolution - A free to use script hosting website that offers screenwriters a platform to promote their scripts and a way for filmmakers to search through them.

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        • #34
          Re: Black List Score Patterns

          Originally posted by CJ Walley View Post
          Maybe Franklin can provide stats, but I get the impression many just buy one and then decide that represents the opinion of BL as a whole.
          Yes, I agree as that seems to be the overall impression here.
          "Running down a dream, that never would come to me." Tom Petty

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          • #35
            Re: Black List Score Patterns

            Originally posted by grumpywriter View Post
            I think this is all just about subjectivity and it matches the experience of going wide with scripts and also submitting them to contests -- it's all gonna come down to who's reading it and their own built-in biases. I have a manager and my manager has been lukewarm or "on the fence" about scripts of mine that later got optioned or serious interest/director attachments and likewise has loved scripts of mine that have gone absolutely nowhere. It's a crap shoot...
            This is my experience as well. It's just so so subjective. A great spread in scores wouldn't surprise me, because the majority of work in the *real* world for various biases gets passed on/ critiqued/ loved. You ask nine different people what they thought of a movie, you'll get nine different opinions. Occasionally, a script will come along that everyone loves but that's very rare. Look at how polarizing Wolf of Wall Street was. Wildly different opinions of the same film.

            Let me tell you, when I got repped - those problems didn't go away, they're amplified. Everyone on your team and in the market - at every step - becomes an arbiter of what goes further and what doesn't. So that spread in points will always get ahold of you. It's why most stuff never gets made, and when it does, why a movie can seem like a big two-hour conflict of opinions. And it takes a certain kind of masochism to want to be a writer, because you are the one that has to execute through all the slop haha. And then get trashed by critics for choices you wouldn't have made in the first place. And if you want to keep working, you have to keep that quiet. But then there are those rare times where people with similar sentiments come together, find each other and work on a project and foster a great experience.

            And then - there's that rare breed of writer that just gets it. They speak the language, know what to toss and what to keep, and know how to make the good notes work so that execs forget the bad ones, or are just so damn good that everyone leaves them alone, like this guy that wrote True Detective. That guy is a beast and I love him for it, because he shows us something new.

            Anyway, my posts go on as many tangents as my scripts haha. I like the discussion though. Keep in mind all you need is one champion, one legit person that really really loves it, to open up doors.

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            • #36
              Re: Black List Score Patterns

              Originally posted by CJ Walley View Post
              That one went 5,2,6.

              Other went 7,3,7.
              Hmm...very interesting. I am waiting for my review, but this almost makes me think I ought to buy three just to get a really good picture...LOL.
              "Running down a dream, that never would come to me." Tom Petty

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              • #37
                Re: Black List Score Patterns

                So, here's the thing. We try to keep the moderation here pretty laid back. But when a mod tells you to stop fighting, that's kind of your cue to stop fighting. Yes, that includes backhanded slaps at each other, too.

                (You might be saying, wait, what slaps? Well, they're gone now. But the more we have to do that kind of stuff in a thread, the more we start to reconsider whether it's a thread worth keeping - and I think there's a good conversation here outside the sniping. Let's focus on that, okay?)
                Patrick Sweeney

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                • #38
                  Re: Black List Score Patterns

                  Originally posted by Howie428 View Post
                  I recall reading that Franklin and his staff do in-depth statistics work on their data. I'm sure they know that successive reviews are not really statistically "independent-, which probably makes the analysis tough.

                  Firstly, I believe they assign scripts to readers based on genre/preferences. That suggests the first reviewer might be the person most likely to respond well to the material.

                  There probably aren't that many readers who favor material in certain genres. That would imply that beyond the first read your script is more likely to go to a slush pile reader. At that point the odds increase that your sci-fi/fantasy/horror/comedy will land in the hands of someone who doesn't get/like that kind of thing.

                  Also, if you buy more than one review at a time it seems reasonable to expect positive reviews to come in first, because readers who like the material will get to it earlier and review it more smoothly.

                  A further element to consider is possible herd mentality impacts. If reviewers know how other reviewers have responded to the material, then I'd expect to detect an impact on their scores.

                  All these factors are things that statistical analysis could detect as the data volume increases. However, they are not flaws in and of themselves. Knowing these kinds of factors are in play would be part of monitoring the system, because they are explanations for what otherwise would be anomalies. Understanding them lets you screen for genuine outliers of the kind that perhaps would need intervention.

                  Of course these issues are for Franklin and his staff to worry about, since no single user would have enough data to draw any valid conclusions.

                  That being said, my own Black List experience has been that on all three occasions the highest score I got came from the first reviewer. The first reviewer typically appears to have understood/accepted my intent.

                  Of course a cynic might attribute this positive first response to a baiting tactic designed to encourage follow up work, but I don't see it that way. I would guess that the factors I mentioned above would be part of why it would be hard for Franklin to provide stats that would disprove this point.
                  I don't think any of the factors you imply would affect a later reader's score would apply because Franklin said the reads are always blind.
                  "Running down a dream, that never would come to me." Tom Petty

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                  • #39
                    Re: Black List Score Patterns

                    Originally posted by madworld View Post
                    Keep in mind all you need is one champion, one legit person that really really loves it, to open up doors.
                    Ain't that the truth.

                    There is only ONE buyer, at the end of the day.

                    Brings to mind Matthew McConaughey's Golden Globes speech where he said he was thankful the script had been passed on 86 times before he got it. He was the ONE that loved it, and he might ride it all the way to an Oscar.
                    "Running down a dream, that never would come to me." Tom Petty

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                    • #40
                      Re: Black List Score Patterns

                      Originally posted by Patrick Sweeney View Post
                      So, here's the thing. We try to keep the moderation here pretty laid back. But when a mod tells you to stop fighting, that's kind of your cue to stop fighting. Yes, that includes backhanded slaps at each other, too.

                      (You might be saying, wait, what slaps? Well, they're gone now. But the more we have to do that kind of stuff in a thread, the more we start to reconsider whether it's a thread worth keeping - and I think there's a good conversation here outside the sniping. Let's focus on that, okay?)
                      Sure thing, Patrick
                      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Black List Score Patterns

                        Originally posted by CJ Walley View Post
                        The issue isn't the polarisation/variation. It's being ranked based on an average score. I'm not saying it's wrong, it just sucks, it really really sucks. Especially when it's your scripts average that gets dragged down. It's very hard not to feel put out. It's very hard not to feel unlucky.
                        True but 96% of users aren't experiencing this. There's always going to be someone who's hard done by or let down by any service but you can't balk at 4% - especially in a personal taste field such as this.

                        Another reason (should be obvious in my OP) why I feel this thread does no one any favours is that it deflects away from the truth that it's hard to find one person to champion your work (as per Matthew McConnaughey) let alone his boss, his boss's boss. So instead of taking it on the chin, that one person's meat is another man's poison, this thread focusses on that less than four percent who feel aggrieved and engenders the belief that they've been wronged. And as the thread will attract those in that sub-4 percent then it's going to give the impression of a much larger issue than there really is, sparking conspiracy theories about how Franklin is being disingenuous with his stats and casting aspersions on TBL itself when everyone should take the entire spec process on the chin: opinions vary. Get used to it or get out.

                        Hence it does no one - not TBL, Franklin or DDP'ers (whether they've tried TBL or not) any favours.

                        No one in their right mind, upon getting an offer of representation, would call up and query the guys who rejected them. They wouldn't start a thread on DDP asking for similar results yet it's happening now. And that's what I don't get. What can be gained apart from finding other people in that same extreme minority?

                        Don't forget the Black List isn't the be all and end all. Laurie got a 9 and no traction. And for all those upset, remember the guy who got a 5 and his script is being filmed. People should stop navel gazing and looking to blame TBL for their scores (and thus their lack of exposure and success). People should stop looking for excuses. Your script resonated with one reader but not another - it's par for the course. Just be grateful the one who liked it liked it enough to score it an 8. Give me 4 and an 8 over a 4 and a 6 any day. And if in doubt, get a 3rd read. 8, 7, 4 paints a very different picture to 4, 4, 8.
                        Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 01-14-2014, 01:24 PM.
                        M.A.G.A.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Black List Score Patterns

                          Originally posted by Exponent5 View Post
                          *(re: Dallas Buyers)* ....had been passed on 86 times....
                          Is this true? If so, it certainly wasn't for the writing.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Black List Score Patterns

                            Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                            True but 96% of users aren't experiencing this. There's always going to be someone who's hard done by or let down by any service but you can't balk at 4% - especially in a personal taste field such as this.
                            Indeed but I'm not presenting a fully rational feeling here, it's a purely emotional one.

                            Knowing you're just one of the 4% doesn't make you feel better, it makes you feel worse and envy the 96%.

                            You want to discuss it, you want to find others who've gone through it. You want to share your reflection on it. You want to understand what it means for you as a writer.

                            Telling me I'm butthurt doesn't help, I know I'm butthurt. Cuddle me and tell me there's plenty more fish in the sea.
                            Script Revolution - A free to use script hosting website that offers screenwriters a platform to promote their scripts and a way for filmmakers to search through them.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Black List Score Patterns

                              Originally posted by bjamin View Post
                              Is this true? If so, it certainly wasn't for the writing.
                              Yep, that's what he said in his speech. Maybe people were passing on the script for the material or subject matter, more than for the writing itself.
                              "Running down a dream, that never would come to me." Tom Petty

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Black List Score Patterns

                                Originally posted by madworld View Post
                                This is my experience as well. It's just so so subjective. A great spread in scores wouldn't surprise me, because the majority of work in the *real* world for various biases gets passed on/ critiqued/ loved. You ask nine different people what they thought of a movie, you'll get nine different opinions. Occasionally, a script will come along that everyone loves but that's very rare. Look at how polarizing Wolf of Wall Street was. Wildly different opinions of the same film.
                                So true... I see no reason why the same thing shouldn't occur with screenplays.

                                Originally posted by madworld View Post
                                Let me tell you, when I got repped - those problems didn't go away, they're amplified. Everyone on your team and in the market - at every step - becomes an arbiter of what goes further and what doesn't. So that spread in points will always get ahold of you. It's why most stuff never gets made, and when it does, why a movie can seem like a big two-hour conflict of opinions. And it takes a certain kind of masochism to want to be a writer, because you are the one that has to execute through all the slop haha. And then get trashed by critics for choices you wouldn't have made in the first place. And if you want to keep working, you have to keep that quiet. But then there are those rare times where people with similar sentiments come together, find each other and work on a project and foster a great experience.
                                Yes! I haven't gotten to the point of having "critics" for my work yet but it's happening on a smaller scale with producers. I'll tell you a quick story: I recently went through a rewrite/development process on a script with a producer. Towards the beginning he suggested I add something that I didn't think was smart to add. I gently pushed back but eventually made the change. Fast forward through another four drafts to the almost-final draft, and he says, "Why is XYZ in there? I don't like that." It was, of course, the part he suggested I add. I REALLY had to bite my tongue on that one...


                                Originally posted by madworld View Post
                                Keep in mind all you need is one champion, one legit person that really really loves it, to open up doors.
                                Yup. All it takes is one. Which is why passes are never worth getting too upset over. It's just that one person's opinion. And the wonderful thing about subjectivity is that's it's totally fair -- it works as much in your favor as it does against you.

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