Can you work with "outsiders"?

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  • #16
    Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

    That's funny Bio!!!

    I agree, I would tell your friend that this clearly isn't going to work. If they think it's easy, wish them luck developing it, let THEM write it, send it off to some producers and then see how easy it ISN'T.
    "The two hardest words to write are FADE IN. The two most gratifying are FADE OUT."

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    • #17
      Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

      Originally posted by dog678 View Post
      About 4 hours later, with about a few light outlines and two pages of script written(which I think is good for a first day), we began REALLY FIGHTING.
      This was the first red flag I saw in your post, and they started flying pretty fast and furious after that. The red flag isn't that you were fighting... it's that you actually got into the script on the first day. I know everyone's process is different, but I typically spend months on an outline before starting a script. Weeks if the idea is already "perfect", which this guy insists is the case.

      But then I think back to when I first started screenwriting, and I had a lot of the same attitudes as your friend. I figured that my really superior taste in film would make me some sort of prodigy, and I would churn out amazing first drafts like it was nothing. I learned from these foolish novice mistakes, maybe your friend needs to go through the same thing. The first step for him would be actually trying to write the screenplay. If he finishes it, then he will no doubt realize his folly when he reads it a few months later.

      If not, well, the world would no doubt accept another Michael Bay...

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      • #18
        Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

        This is why all my friends are either in film, or some other form of the arts. This is also why I would never collaborate with a layman. I won't even collaborate with one of my friends, even the ones who know how to write. I will adapt their ideas into shorts for them to film, though, for a fee.

        INT. PINEAPPLE - DAY


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        • #19
          Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

          I am new at this, but I feel like I am that friend sometimes.

          I don't know much about the movie end, but I spend so much time reading all types of literature on scriptwriting. I respect the craft, but I am not a huge moviegoer...weird huh.

          Anyway, right now I have a cousin who is an actor and he thinks it is best that I calloborate with other writers, but I was wondering if most scripts are written by one person or based on a collaboration?

          I am falling in love with scriptwriting, now I just need her to fall head over heals with me. I don't want to make or sell one script, I want to be great and sell all of them.

          like all the kids growing up I want to be like Mike, but Michael Crichton

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          • #20
            Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

            I didn't learn by reading screenplays. What's the point? You've seen the film! What's the script going to reveal that the film didn't?

            What? Teach me how to string words together? pff.

            There's no right or wrong way to develop as a writer.

            The only way to learn to write is by writing. Your brain has to experience how to carve out the pathways. However suits you.

            Who knows, your friend may end up doing really well.

            (and then you get to punch a hole in the wall)

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            • #21
              Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

              Originally posted by maralyn View Post
              I didn't learn by reading screenplays. What's the point? You've seen the film! What's the script going to reveal that the film didn't?

              What? Teach me how to string words together? pff.
              If writers don't read, it shows in their writing. Reading good writing does teach you how to string words together effectively, which is incredibly important if you're trying to be a writer (duh).

              Reading screenplays will also teach you how to format your own scripts and how to convey in words what you want to see on the screen. You can't get that from watching the finished film. There's a lot to be said for seeing the words on the page.
              "Your intuition knows what to write, so get out of the way.-
              ― Ray Bradbury

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              • #22
                Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                Geez. This is your "best friend"? Yikes. Not to get personal, but he doesn't sound like the kind of guy I could get through lunch with, much less hang out with for any length of time. But different people serve different functions in our lives. You can be completely incompatible in one area and beautifully compatible in another. If he's your friend, just stick to that and say you have different ways of working. (You don't have to mention that your way of working is to work.)

                My favorite response to "what's the big deal, it's easy" is "well then go to town. Go do it!"

                Another approach: I've found that splitting up responsibilities is a great way to give someone a dose of reality. Since this is a "collaboration" then let him write the first draft! It sounds like he doesn't even have the discipline to handle an outline or a synopsis, so let him jump in and get started.

                To be honest, my reaction to a non-writer telling me my business is to say, "Seriously? Are you fukcing kidding me?? Get the fukc out of my face." Your post hit me on a deep level because, to me, it was about more than writing. The fact that both your "best friend" and your roommate were ganging up on you, giving you grief about your particular path, reminded me of a time in my life, i.e. the vast majority of it, when I was surrounded by people like that. It took me a lot of time and a major personality shift to jettison the people who were disrespecting me. At this point, I have a strong support network of friends who believe in me and have regard for my ability (and can intelligently and respectfully criticize its suckage when the content doesn't work). It so happens that most of them are writers or other artists.

                I have ZERO tolerance for disrespect. If someone tells me "maybe that's why you're not in Hollywood writing for a living" or some crap like that, unless it's sincere advice solicited from someone I respect and trust, then that person gets the boot. No second chances. The wall goes up and that's the last time I give that person more than a pleasant hello in passing.

                Collaboration is an intimate relationship, not to be entered into casually. And, imho, NEVER to be entered into with a non-writer. Date first, move slowly. Play it safe.

                Btw, my best friend is a movie whore like me. He's also a non-writer. Sometimes we brainstorm ideas or talk about what we like. And of course he'll throw out ideas he thinks will make great movies. But the key difference here is that he has the maturity not to tell me my business, and vice versa. When I tell him how the craft of writing is executed, he respects that and listens. He knows that, even if I'm not doing it full-time yet, I've been doing it a helluva lot longer than he has. That mutual respect is the main reason we're such good friends.

                One more note - I'm totally going to brag now. My own mom used to be dismissive about my writing. "Yeah, he wants to be a 'writer'." Imagine someone rolling her eyes and making little finger quotes. Then I got hired to adapt one of her favorite authors. That shut her up.

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                • #23
                  Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                  Originally posted by maralyn View Post
                  I didn't learn by reading screenplays. What's the point? You've seen the film! What's the script going to reveal that the film didn't?
                  It will reveal the nature of the master scene spec script form and given that there's a lot of variation on that theme, the more screenplays one reads the better their grasp will become of what screenwriting's all about.

                  Originally posted by maralyn View Post
                  What? Teach me how to string words together? pff.
                  Generally speaking, this curriculum is learned in grammar school and wrapped up in High School, where course in English composition are commonly avaialble.

                  Originally posted by maralyn View Post
                  There's no right or wrong way to develop as a screenwriter.
                  Sure there is. If some young High School grad told you they wanted to be a screenwriter and you recommended they go out around Mojave somewhere and hole up in a shack and "just write," that'd be tantamount to a wrong way.

                  One right way, for example, would be to suggest they enroll in the MFA program at UCLA Film School's writing program.

                  Originally posted by maralyn View Post
                  The only way to learn to write is by writing. Your brain has to experience how to carve out the pathways. However suits you.
                  But this can't be done in an uninformed way, at least and be very effective. Most writers learn to write within the context of a literary culture of one bent or another, i.e. stage, screen, prose forms. Most of our great novelists had university in their backgrounds; many of our better screenwriters have film school in theirs.

                  Ultimately, yes, a writer wanna-be's got to write and write a very good deal. But to do that from an uninformed place is simply not a very swift idea.

                  Originally posted by maralyn View Post
                  Who knows, your friend may end up doing really well.

                  (and then you get to punch a hole in the wall)
                  The odds of this happening are infinitesimally long, so long as to make the comment irrelevant.

                  I think it is a dis-service to the craft to expound on it in a dogmatic manner, "The only way to ..." The real picture is much bigger than that.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                    Originally Posted by maralyn
                    I didn't learn by reading screenplays. What's the point? You've seen the film! What's the script going to reveal that the film didn't?

                    What? Teach me how to string words together? pff.
                    if someone said, "i plan to write the next great american novel." and you asked, "what's your favorite novel?" and they said, "well, i haven't read one yet but i listen to books on tape all the time." would you feel confident that she would be successful? -- not reading screenplays = worst advice ever!

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                    • #25
                      Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                      Well, I was lucky. I had a screenwriting lecturer for three years at filmschool.

                      And I had a lot of amazing co-writers.

                      Don't learn to write from anonymous posters on the internet.

                      sheesh

                      But also, we're only getting one side of this story. Maybe his friend tells a whole other story.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                        Maybe dog678 dragged out some smelly coffee stained beat sheet, and mckee and snyder, and was being all weird that they had to structure it by some numerical formula, and then started going on about he knows so much more because he's read scripts and scrreenwriting books....

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                        • #27
                          Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                          I personally had an awful experience the one time I co-wrote something with another "writer." To cut a long story short, when the movie goes into production next year I am legally-obligated to give the guy a check for 50% of my payment (which would be $150k)... even though 99% of the story was mine and I did 95% of the writing.

                          To the original poster, I suggest you stay well away from this guy and don't work with him. For everyone else working with another writer or considering it, learn from my mistakes and protect yourself every step of the way. If the original idea is yours, register an outline. That way the other party can't claim it was their concept in the first place.

                          Whether they're an outside or an insider, trust no one.
                          NOTES / COVERAGE
                          15,000+ Screenplays
                          [email protected]

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                          • #28
                            Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                            Well, but, if Rossio had taken that attitude he might still be out there trying to sell his first spec.

                            Let's not underestimate the power of co-writing.

                            But obviously, it's not for everyone.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                              Originally posted by maralyn View Post
                              Well, but, if Rossio had taken that attitude he might still be out there trying to sell his first spec.

                              Let's not underestimate the power of co-writing.

                              But obviously, it's not for everyone.
                              Indeed we should not underestimate the idea of co-writing. There have been some very successful writing teams in the history of the movie industry, with Terry Rossio and his partner being only the most current of them.

                              I'm engaged in a co-writing project right now as a matter of fact, and have done this in the past. First thing one should do is go to the WGA's website and download their co-writing sample contract, revise it to suit the particular needs of their situation, and execute it.

                              A lot of television is co-written.

                              But what's needed are two competent writers. Short of that, it'll become a mess soon enough.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                                Originally posted by FADE IN View Post
                                If some young High School grad told you they wanted to be a screenwriter and you recommended they go out around Mojave somewhere and hole up in a shack and "just write," that'd be tantamount to a wrong way.
                                How so?

                                One right way, for example, would be to suggest they enroll in the MFA program at UCLA Film School's writing program.
                                The phrase "right way" and anything involving that specific combination of the letters L, C, A and U do not go together.
                                Ralphy's Fvcking Blog

                                "
                                Ever notice how 'monogamy' rhymes with 'monotony'?" -- Christian Troy

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