Can you work with "outsiders"?

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  • Can you work with "outsiders"?

    Today my best friend came over and had an idea for a movie. So I figured what the hell, I'm stuck on my stuff, let me see if I can be open to working with my best friend on a cool idea and turning it into a screenplay.

    Basically all day we were arguing about everything from the characters, to the set up, to structure...

    About 4 hours later, with about a few light outlines and two pages of script written(which I think is good for a first day), we began REALLY FIGHTING.

    Now, let me ask you all. Have you had experience trying your best working with people who have NEVER read a screenplay, or don't watch many movies, but SWEAR their idea is pretty much golden and it's not that hard to just write it?

    I understood that he didn't have much experience, but he began to question my ability to just hurry up and write some pages, and that's when I lost it, because he has no idea what it takes to start a screenplay and actually finish one.

    What got me more upset was he started saying why THIS is why I'm not making movies and living the Hollywood dream today because I worry too much about complicating a screenplay and just keeping it simple, to which I told him if it were THAT simple I'd have written 100 specs and sold them all. He didn't agree.

    I tried my best to see where he was coming from with his idea, but he just couldn't comprehend what I was talking about, especially technically.

    To top it off, my roommate gets into the argument defending him about why I put down his ideas for the story and how I think I'm a guru of Screenwriting, but I kept trying to explain to them that his short story is a complete 180 from a screenplay and that a screenplay had to be carefully written with so much attention, but they kept ganging up on me.

    How possible is it to work with someone that wants to write a movie but doesn't feel they need to read ANY scripts at all, nor see films related to the story?

    The argument basically from his side is that you don't need to learn anything, but do it your own way and not worry about that stuff and just write the story plain and simple. He feels there's no rules or principles to follow whatsoever because he's seen movies and know it can be done just like that.

    Let the discussion begin...


  • #2
    Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

    Run for the hills. That sounds like a nightmare.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

      For me this sort of situation is a no-brainer. It won't get better or easier. Let it go. Explain you're too busy with your own stuff to collaborate. Just rescue the friendship if it means anything to you.
      "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

        What are you getting out of this?

        It sounds like the guy doesn't like what you are doing, so wish him luck and walk away.

        - Bill
        Free Script Tips:
        http://www.scriptsecrets.net

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

          Maybe your "best friend" can write it himself and you write your own material. Why does he need you? Screenwriting is easy.
          "What's worse than being talked about? Not being talked about."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

            Originally posted by ShaneBlackFan View Post
            Screenwriting is easy.
            Everybody knows this. Heck, he should be able to knock out a polished fourth draft in a week.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

              So, how long have you and Michael Bay been friends?
              "Only nothing is impossible."
              - Grant Morrison

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                Originally posted by instant_karma View Post
                So, how long have you and Michael Bay been friends?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                  I know the feeling. I took a meeting with an old acquaintance of mine at one point, who had a screenplay he wanted me to read. The thing was awful; it was like Michael Bay and McG got drunk together and said, "Let's write our next movie ourselves! It was nothing more like massive, derivative action sequences glued together with short scenes of the characters saying, "Where should we go now?" "Yeah, let's go to the boatyard where there couldn't possibly be any terrorists waiting for us.")

                  Apparently, he took the meeting expecting it to be about how we were going to get this intro production next month and start shooting it. He didn't want to hear any of the comments I had about the work his script needed and even went so far as to say, "Who cares what's on the page? We all know the director (him, naturally) is going to shoot what's in his head anyway. Screenwriting's easy... you just write some sh*t on the page, crank it out and then start pre-production."

                  We left the meeting with him upset because I hadn't made him a six-figure offer for the script and a production commitment... and I was upset because he was a friend who I genuinely wanted to help, and he just wouldn't listen to the issues I was pointing out that were keeping my company and all the others he had pitched this project to, from touching it with a ten-foot pole.

                  I mention this example because, in my experience, people who aren't interested in putting in the work to write a good screenplay aren't going to be good writing partners. They're probably not going to change, and they're probably not going to see things your way. It's even worse that he's your best friend because you've got a friendship that you're trying to salvage. Honestly, the best thing you can do is walk away and say, "You know what? I don't think this is working out." Tell him your writing styles don't mesh (they don't) and that you're more interested in saving the friendship than you are in fighting about a script collaboration every day.

                  Life is too short to work with a partner who makes the writing process miserable. Cut your losses and walk away, hopefully before you irreparably harm your friendship. And don't listen to what he or your roommate says. Unless they're screenwriters too, who cares what someone who doesn't understand the process thinks about your writing or your method?

                  Trust me, if things have started off this way, they're not going to get any better. Imagine what it will be like when you actually disagree on story points, bits of dialogue, etc. ... if you're fighting this much over just the decision of how to write it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                    I'm with the "Run away!" side here.

                    Perhaps say that you can tell he has a definite vision for what he wants and it would be better if he writes it himself. If it's so easy why does he need you?

                    How you deal with him if and when he brings the matter up in future when he complains about struggling to get more than a few pages down or, if he does manage 100 pages, how he can't get anyone to read/represent/buy/make it is then up to you. A tactful "Welcome to my world. Isn't so easy now, eh?" might be the best response then.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                      The fact that the collaboration isn't going to succeed is a given. (And let me guess, you guys didn't start by drafting and signing a Writer's Collaboration Agreement.)

                      Collaborating with non-writers will rarely work for exactly the reasons demonstrated. Non-writers do not realize just how intricate a process the writing of a screenplay is.

                      The difference between having a great idea for a movie and executing it on the page is no different than the ability to hum a song and the ability to actually perform it.

                      Your friend hasn't taken vocal lessons, doesn't know how to play a guitar, bass, drums or any other instrument, and yet, when he hums his tune for you, he can't understand why you can't immediately perform the complete composition to perfection (and without making any change to the way it sounded in his head when he was humming it).

                      If a person cannot respect the effort and talent it takes to hone (and change) an idea in order to make it work as a finished script, they will not be a viable working partner, as they are resisting what would need to be a swift and severe learning curve in order to provide valuable input.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                        Originally posted by dog678 View Post
                        Today my best friend came over and had an idea for a movie. So I figured what the hell, I'm stuck on my stuff, let me see if I can be open to working with my best friend on a cool idea and turning it into a screenplay.

                        Basically all day we were arguing about everything from the characters, to the set up, to structure...

                        About 4 hours later, with about a few light outlines and two pages of script written(which I think is good for a first day), we began REALLY FIGHTING.

                        Now, let me ask you all. Have you had experience trying your best working with people who have NEVER read a screenplay, or don't watch many movies, but SWEAR their idea is pretty much golden and it's not that hard to just write it?

                        I understood that he didn't have much experience, but he began to question my ability to just hurry up and write some pages, and that's when I lost it, because he has no idea what it takes to start a screenplay and actually finish one.

                        What got me more upset was he started saying why THIS is why I'm not making movies and living the Hollywood dream today because I worry too much about complicating a screenplay and just keeping it simple, to which I told him if it were THAT simple I'd have written 100 specs and sold them all. He didn't agree.

                        I tried my best to see where he was coming from with his idea, but he just couldn't comprehend what I was talking about, especially technically.

                        To top it off, my roommate gets into the argument defending him about why I put down his ideas for the story and how I think I'm a guru of Screenwriting, but I kept trying to explain to them that his short story is a complete 180 from a screenplay and that a screenplay had to be carefully written with so much attention, but they kept ganging up on me.

                        How possible is it to work with someone that wants to write a movie but doesn't feel they need to read ANY scripts at all, nor see films related to the story?

                        The argument basically from his side is that you don't need to learn anything, but do it your own way and not worry about that stuff and just write the story plain and simple. He feels there's no rules or principles to follow whatsoever because he's seen movies and know it can be done just like that.

                        Let the discussion begin...
                        Ideas for movies are a dime a dozen, everyone's got one, or more.

                        Good ideas for movies are $1,000 a dozen, not so many of them around.

                        Great ideas for features are $100,000 a dozen, they're pretty rare.

                        A screenwriter possesses highly specialized knowledge, usually hard won. It's both broad and deep. He or she also possesses a powerful creative urge or drive and a practiced hand at applying imagination to a structured art and is disciplined in the act of writing.

                        Joe Moviegoer has none of this, not even the faintest clue. They don't know a genre from a character arc from scene caption from a reveal from subtext. That's not a crime. It only becomes an issue when megolamania takes over and engulfs them with the idea that they're the next Jerry Bruckheimer or William Goldman (or whomever) and intrude upon the life of a screenwriter in an attempt to get them to do what they can't.

                        This is not an uncommon event or occurrence, specially if you live in L.A. in any proximity to the West Side of town, say the quadrant that's defined by Pico Boulevard on the South, Ventura Freeway on the North, the coast on the West, and, say Vermont Avenue on the East or even the Harbor Freeway.

                        A smart screenwriter's non-writer friends never even know they're writing for the screen. That's a screenwriter's first line of defense against intrusions by the great megolamaniacal unwashed; his or her second line of defense is a keen ability to feign deafness; third line is the discipline to say "No, I never discuss movie ideas with anyone except my (wife, significant other, God, agent, manager, fellow writer, producer, guru), as in never, thank you very much. Did you watch the All-Star game last night?"

                        Writing's a lonely life. Best keep it that way. We always have DD and its many look-alike's on the web where we can commiserate, share knowledge and experiences, and get feedback from like-minded folks. Recognize the unique nature of your knowledge and its rarity in society. Understand that it doesn't make you any better than anyone else, just different.

                        Vive la difference!

                        Interacting with someone who only thinks they have an idea for a movie is like some guy with ten hours of solo time in a Piper Cub or a Cessna 152 trying to have an intelligent converation about flying with a guy who's got 12,000 hours of PIC time in 747's, never the twain shall meet.

                        Don't waste your valuable time. You have a screenplay to write. Be humble about it but be firm, ultra firm in fact. Ultimately, you'll be glad you were.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                          i've never had a friend that had better movie ideas than mine.

                          never had a friend really -- oh, wait a minute...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                            Originally posted by FADE IN View Post
                            Writing's a lonely life. Best keep it that way. We always have DD and its many look-alike's on the web where we can commiserate, share knowledge and experiences, and get feedback from like-minded folks. Recognize the unique nature of your knowledge and its rarity in society. Understand that it doesn't make you any better than anyone else, just different.

                            Vive la difference!
                            Very true... And a good observation...

                            I never talk about screenwriting or what I've written or working on to my friends or family.. They couldn't give two s____s (fill in the gap)...

                            Try and discuss the intracies with a buddy and his or her eyes glaze over with utter boredom... They don't have a clue what you're on about..

                            Throw them a logline and they may get the picture but discuss all the elements of a screenplay and you'll be thrown out of the BBQ.. That's why we have forums like DD and a small group of reader friends to give us feedback and notes otherwise that writing business would be even more lonely than it already is...

                            There is a tradeoff though... When you have a fairly decent first draft and it's got a decent structure you know when you start rewriting you get such a pleasure when your ideas work.. The personal buzz from your achievements is such a pleasure.. I've had similar highs directing, editing and playing guitar in a band on stage, recording and producing a CD album and writing and finishing a good script comes pretty close to those other experiences..

                            Very difficult to work with "outsiders" - they don't possess the inside knowledge and haven't put the mileage in like screenwriters themselves..

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Can you work with "outsiders"?

                              Originally posted by Kevan View Post
                              Very true... And a good observation...

                              I never talk about screenwriting or what I've written or working on to my friends or family.. They couldn't give two s____s (fill in the gap)...

                              Try and discuss the intracies with a buddy and his or her eyes glaze over with utter boredom... They don't have a clue what you're on about..

                              Throw them a logline and they may get the picture but discuss all the elements of a screenplay and you'll be thrown out of the BBQ.. That's why we have forums like DD and a small group of reader friends to give us feedback and notes otherwise that writing business would be even more lonely than it already is...

                              There is a tradeoff though... When you have a fairly decent first draft and it's got a decent structure you know when you start rewriting you get such a pleasure when your ideas work.. The personal buzz from your achievements is such a pleasure.. I've had similar highs directing, editing and playing guitar in a band on stage, recording and producing a CD album and writing and finishing a good script comes pretty close to those other experiences..

                              Very difficult to work with "outsiders" - they don't possess the inside knowledge and haven't put the mileage in like screenwriters themselves..

                              I gave up on trying to talk to my family about either my job or my screenwriting aspirations when they asked, for the fourth time, "So does the writer get to pick which actors are in the movie? And do they get to decide where to shoot it? Because that would be cool if you could decide to shoot in Greece and take a vacation there at the same time."

                              If only...

                              Comment

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