Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

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  • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

    Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
    Everyone's advice is valid!

    Hooray.

    So why come here? Why not just ask the meth-heads on the exit ramp?
    Was responding to Alex's point about message delivery. Took the rest to mean "method," not advice.

    ...Which is not exactly true either, I know. But it's polite, and things seemed to be getting out of hand.

    Ire - funny.

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    • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

      Originally posted by alex whitmer View Post
      Glad you brought that up. When doing research on an addiction-story screenplay, or on a particular character addicted to meth, I would do (have done) just that. Because their take on it matters and is valid. And they will likely have valuable input as to how to portray it. Hell, they may have even been a screenwriter or forum troll before stumbling into meth.

      Actually they weren't on the exit ramp, but close enough.

      a
      Good grief. What a reach.

      Reminds of the time my Rolex Two-tone Daytona quit working. Now I could have taken it to a Rolex dealer and let them fix it, but I figured I could just as well take it to some homeless crack-heads and let them have a look at it. (Who knows, maybe one of them was a former Rolex watchmaker.) Anyway, everyone's point of view is just as valid when it comes to watch repair.

      I'm absolutely sure I could have found a gentleman amongst that group to fix it too, had two of them not beaten me senseless and taken the watch.
      "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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      • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

        Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
        Good grief. What a reach.

        Reminds of the time my Rolex Two-tone Daytona quit working. Now I could have taken it to a Rolex dealer and let them fix it, but I figured I could just as well take it to some homeless crack-heads and let them have a look at it. (Who knows, maybe one of them was a former Rolex watchmaker.) Anyway, everyone's point of view is just as valid when it comes to watch repair.

        I'm absolutely sure I could have found a gentleman amongst that group to fix it too, had two of them not beaten me senseless and taken the watch.
        Saint tick-tock could have fixed your watch but he sold his tools on Amazon. Nads and juice got your watch thru negotiations. But none of 'em know shyte about character arcs and inciting incidents.
        #writinginaStarbucks #re-thinkingmyexistence #notanotherweaklogline #thinkingwhatwouldWilldo

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        • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

          Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
          Good grief. What a reach
          Don't you interview the kinds of people/characters you want to create in a story? How can you write a meth head convincingly if you have never talked with one?

          What about an elderly woman dumped in an 'old folks home' by her kids because takiing care of her was inconvenient? Wouldn't you want to meet her and get her story first hand?

          Sorta getting back to the original question of this thread, if you want to create a convincing flaw, whether it will run full counter to the theme or not, then you need to tap every possible option to make that flaw your flaw. And if and when the screenplay goes into production, I would think the actor would do the same. Rainman?

          No, not a reach at all. It should always be your first choice, when possible.

          a
          Last edited by alex whitmer; 06-18-2012, 05:11 AM.

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          • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

            Character and story research is different than asking a random meth head who has never completed high-school and uses a pen for other things than putting words to paper advice on screenwriting.

            "Pro screenwriters are all saying one thing. But I'm gonna hear out the meth head first."

            "Okay, so I'm gonna go with the meth head's advice. Just need to sell my TV and computer and give him the proceeds before finding out the next step."

            Comment


            • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

              Originally posted by Why One View Post
              "Pro screenwriters are all saying one thing. But I'm gonna hear out the meth head first."
              Not all. And being pro doesn't by default mean they are good. Just employed. Really, are 'they' all saying not to interview people? Do they also say not to go out and just observe? I'm a working screenwriter, and therefore 'pro' and I would jump at an opportunity to interview a meth head in as safe an environment as possible.


              You are assuming a meth head never finished high school. If you were to speak with a few, you'd learn differently. Same goes for prostitutes, be they high-end escorts or crack whores. That homeless man pushing the shopping cart was someone different before that moment you pass judgment. May have been a professor of biology, or a loving father of three - or both - before life beat the snot out of him. Wouldn't you want to know? Or will you take the easy road and assume they are uneducated and filthy, and write them as such?


              These kinds of assumptions are what make off-the-shelf characters so off the shelf, and why such a miniscule fraction of screenplays have any depth or believability. And yet they get produced, only to throw out a film without depth or believability. Right up there with the tourist shlock you can find at any made-to-empty-your-pockets destination.

              Trust me when I say I know what your next argument is will be.

              Have you ever interviewed a blind person? Have they been blind since birth, or did they lose their sight, and at what age? No two have the same history.

              Go out and interview, or at the very least observe, your characters. There are 'flaws' in them that are very real and very dynamic. Rich fodder for rich characters.

              a
              Last edited by alex whitmer; 06-18-2012, 06:05 AM.

              Comment


              • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                Sure, there are default assumptions when it comes to meth heads. But when you peel back the layers, you'll probably uncover some kind of alternative truth. But I wasn't going for that in my analogy/metaphor.

                I'm not gonna write, "as smart as a 5-year old," or "as emphatic as a serial killer," and then argue the hidden layers to make my point valid.

                IMO, being a pro writer means coming from a much more informed view. Means having a craft level capable of generating industry fans, sustaining it for years, as well as building an audience. They are obviously ahead of what most aspiring writers are capable of. And IMO it takes a certain level of ignorance to not recognize that -- to not be humble enough to sit down and learn from them.

                And, no, I don't believe a single pro said to not go out and do research for your characters. Maybe I missed a vital post, but who said that?

                The only thing I saw was that "not all screenwriting advice is equal," which I agree with.

                Do you go to your dry cleaner to ask him to perform emergency heart surgery on you? Who knows, he might surprise you, right? He might have a PhD and wrote a thesis on heart surgery methods that broke new grounds in medical science; but when his wife became terminally ill, he decided to carry out that one last wish before she died, and that was to pick up the dry cleaning. But when he turned up at the dry cleaners with the stub, he discovered that it had been closed down for years. So he spends the next few months tracking down the Yiddish (not Vietnamese -- gotcha) owner who recalled that one dry cleaning item that was never collected. And it was a dress. It was the dress the guy's wife wore when the two first met. Overwhelmed with emotion, the man decides to buy up the closed dry cleaning business and reopen it under his late's wife's name -- where he has remained since.

                Or...

                Or he might actually be a dry cleaner who knows nothing about heart surgery.
                Last edited by Why One; 06-18-2012, 06:35 AM.

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                • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                  Originally posted by alex whitmer View Post
                  Not all. And being pro doesn't by default mean they are good. Just employed. Really, are 'they' all saying not to interview people? Do they also say not to go out and just observe? I'm a working screenwriter, and therefore 'pro' and I would jump at an opportunity to interview a meth head in as safe an environment as possible.


                  You are assuming a meth head never finished high school. If you were to speak with a few, you'd learn differently. Same goes for prostitutes, be they high-end escorts or crack whores. That homeless man pushing the shopping cart was someone different before that moment you pass judgment. May have been a professor of biology, or a loving father of three - or both - before life beat the snot out of him. Wouldn't you want to know? Or will you take the easy road and assume they are uneducated and filthy, and write them as such?


                  These kinds of assumptions are what make off-the-shelf characters so off the shelf, and why such a miniscule fraction of screenplays have any depth or believability. And yet they get produced, only to throw out a film without depth or believability. Right up there with the tourist shlock you can find at any made-to-empty-your-pockets destination.

                  Trust me when I say I know what your next argument is will be.

                  Have you ever interviewed a blind person? Have they been blind since birth, or did they lose their sight, and at what age? No two have the same history.

                  Go out and interview, or at the very least observe, your characters. There are 'flaws' in them that are very real and very dynamic. Rich fodder for rich characters.

                  a
                  Arrow to the knee

                  Comment


                  • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                    Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
                    So why come here? Why not just ask the meth-heads on the exit ramp?

                    Because I don't like to mix my sex life with my writing advice.
                    "Only nothing is impossible."
                    - Grant Morrison

                    Comment


                    • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                      Originally posted by alex whitmer View Post
                      Don't you interview the kinds of people/characters you want to create in a story?
                      Yeah. I just don't ask them for advice on HOW TO WRITE A SCREENPLAY because, as it turns out, not all advice is equal.

                      Some people are actually better at some things than others.

                      What a revolutionary statement to defend...

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                      • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                        Originally posted by alex whitmer View Post
                        These kinds of assumptions are what make off-the-shelf characters so off the shelf, and why such a miniscule fraction of screenplays have any depth or believability.
                        Ditto. It does amaze me how many characters are retreads of other fictional characters. I am in the habit of observing, eavesdropping, listening to people's stories. It's a habit developed when I was writing short stories. You'd be amazed how quickly strangers will tell you their stories. And the details they relay are often something you could never imagine on your own.

                        But what I've observed lately -- a lot of people walking around with their eyes glued to their phones, text messaging, or iPods plugged into their ears. In their own universes.

                        The thing is -- with the internet research is effortless. For example - when researching for my female lead western, with a focus on single women homesteaders (a healthy percentage were single or widowed), I decided to google for diaries kept during the time period. I thought I'd be lucky if I could find a book to buy. I was amazed to find a historic site that had transcribed women's on the site. All right there. Incredible detail. Fodder for scenes I'd never whip up on my own.

                        It's all well and good to believe you have a killer concept -- we all believe we do. But to just "go write it" ignoring all the tools at your disposal -- including arc and theme -- it's a POV I don't understand.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                        • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                          Originally posted by alex whitmer View Post
                          And being pro doesn't by default mean they are good. Just employed.
                          That is so very, very true.

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                          • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                            Very, very true for the unemployed that think they're constantly getting overlooked.

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                            • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                              Originally posted by Why One View Post
                              Very, very true for the unemployed that think they're constantly getting overlooked.
                              Beause there's no such thing as a great screenplay gathering dust in some suit's desk? Because there's no such thing as being in the right place and time to get pages in someone's hand? Because there's no such thing as a suit not knowing what he's looking at and passing a great script up for a run-of-the-mill cookie cutter film? Because there's no such thing as a bad script that gets made? Because there's no such thing as who you know and not what you know?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                                Originally posted by Steven R View Post
                                Beause there's no such thing as a great screenplay gathering dust in some suit's desk? Because there's no such thing as being in the right place and time to get pages in someone's hand? Because there's no such thing as a suit not knowing what he's looking at and passing a great script up for a run-of-the-mill cookie cutter film? Because there's no such thing as a bad script that gets made? Because there's no such thing as who you know and not what you know?
                                Firstly, IMO, the movies produced aren't an accurate representation of the specs that gets people work. Getting specs produced is a whole different kettle of fish. But if a spec has failed to get a writer noticed even after it been read by a number of people around town, then IMO there's a good chance that the spec ain't that special.

                                But if a script truly is amazing, IMO it will get passed around. Because, well, that's just what people are like. They link stuff they love to their friends. Kinda like when 20 of your friends link you that same pic from George Takei's FB page.

                                Good material doesn't stop at one person. Nobody hides amazing scripts. Do you? When you've read an amazing script, do you bury it? Or do you tell your buddies, "Dude, you gotta read this!"

                                But if you truly think that the majority of the specs that land people work are terrible, here's the other way of looking at it:

                                The bar for entry is really, really low. But it's still higher than what most are capable of reaching.

                                Controversial? Yes, it is. Because it requires admission of personal shortcomings, something which 99% of American Idol contestants can't do: http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp...he.Expert.html

                                Any short, beer chugger can criticize LeBron and Kobe. Kobe doesn't pass, ergo he's a bad basketball player. It's a common viewpoint. Don't mean you can run ball better than he can. Really think you can? You should be drafted by now. But a lot of people don't look at the world that way.

                                But then again we are living in an entitled generation where many people believe, "recognition of talent and hard work is the exception not the rule."

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